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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who really caused Jesus to be murdered. (Read 718 times)
BowHunter
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #40 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:00pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:52pm:
So you honestly think ten of the 12 Apostles were willing to die a horrific death over a lie?  Don't see that happening, no one dies for a lie that they have nothing to gain or lose from.


So you're saying that the people who blow themselves up are doing so for something true?

Because "no one dies for a lie that they have nothing to gain or lose from"?

Or were you, as usual, speaking out of term?
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #41 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:11pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:49pm:
Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian:  Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories.  The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar's death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero's death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96.  In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome.  See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome.  Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities.  Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also."  (The misspelling of Christ as "Christus" was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived.  It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.


The irony is that what you're citing is a man reporting what the Christians of the time told him about Jesus. There's no contemporaneous documents about the death of Jesus and note that the man was born in 55AD IE almost two generations after the putative death of Jesus himself. That testimony is less reliable than an internet hoax.


This doesn't even qualify as hearsay. It's second hand hearsay, at best.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #42 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:21pm
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There's no reliable historical evidence that Pontius Pilate even existed. The only mentions of him are through tainted Christian testimonies. It's as if we only knew of Hitler and his "Jewish enemies" through the testimonies of Nazis.

How reliable would these be to archeologists of the distant future?
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Seawolf
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #43 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:22am
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:21pm:
There's no reliable historical evidence that Pontius Pilate even existed. The only mentions of him are through tainted Christian testimonies. It's as if we only knew of Hitler and his "Jewish enemies" through the testimonies of Nazis.

How reliable would these be to archeologists of the distant future?

You really need to do a bit of research about this.

The Pilate stone is a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to, and mentioning, Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judaea from AD 26–36. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. The artifact is particularly significant because it is an archaeological find of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name "Pontius Pilatus". It is contemporary to Pilate's lifetime, and accords with what is known of his reported career.[2][3] In effect, the writing constitutes the earliest surviving record and a contemporaneous evidence for the historical existence of this person; otherwise known from the New Testament, Jewish Literature and brief mentions in retrospective Roman histories, which have themselves survived in still-later copies.

It is likely that Pontius Pilate made his base at Caesarea Maritima, a city that had replaced Jerusalem since AD 6 as the administrative capital and military headquarters of the province,[4] and the site where the stone was discovered. Pilate probably travelled to Jerusalem, the central city of the province's Jewish population, only as often as necessary.[5]

The Pilate stone is currently located at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.[6][7] Replica castings can be found at the Archaeological Museum in Milan, Italy, and on display in Caesarea Maritima itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #44 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:24am
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:00pm:
So you're saying that the people who blow themselves up are doing so for something true?

Because "no one dies for a lie that they have nothing to gain or lose from"?

Or were you, as usual, speaking out of term?

Not even remotely the same.  We are talking about the Apostles who saw Christ, not only rise from the dead but ascend.  I do not see a bunch of men concocting a story and dying for it.  Your example is a bit different in that there is a sect of people who believe their teachings from the Koran, not an eye witness account.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #45 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:27am
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 6:11pm:
The irony is that what you're citing is a man reporting what the Christians of the time told him about Jesus. There's no contemporaneous documents about the death of Jesus and note that the man was born in 55AD IE almost two generations after the putative death of Jesus himself. That testimony is less reliable than an internet hoax.


This doesn't even qualify as hearsay. It's second hand hearsay, at best.


I am citing MULTIPLE independent sources much closer to the event.  These are not historians centuries out.
« Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:35am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #46 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:31am
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Limey wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
If they believe it to be true, it is more likely that they would do as you say.


That still doesn't mean it's true.


Look, believe as you wish and enjoy these conversations, but please don't mix up proof and belief.

And it does not mean it is false either.  If we think logically there simply is no way 12 men, actually many more then 12, would make a lie and all agree to die for the lie.  Actually, scripture says over 500 saw Jesus before his ascension.  Because we dare not be convinced by proof to believe, like a stone with Pontius Pilate's name, for example?   Huh
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #47 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:41am
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Another article for you Bow.

Quote:
UNTIL 1961, there was no concrete archaeological evidence that Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea, ever existed. There were accounts of him, of course, not least the accounts in the Gospels. But the records of his administration had disappeared completely: no papyri, no rolls, no tablets, no (authentic) letters to Rome. The Roman ruins that remained in Israel seemed to have nothing to do with him. Even his aqueduct - a project that got him into plenty of trouble at the time - appeared to have crumbled away.

In the summer of 1961, however, Italian archaeologists found a piece of limestone, 82cm wide by 68cm high, in the ruins of a sports stadium in Caesarea, beside the sea. The stadium had not been there in Pilate's time; he had yelled at his gladiators in another place. But the stone bore his name, and much else besides.

Because it is the only artefact we have - the only proof of him, and also the only object we can be sure he looked at and thought about - even the tiniest aspects of it have a huge importance. Until there are more discoveries, this is as close as we are going to get.

So we have the name set in stone, Pontius Pilate. It would have been nice to have the praenomen too, Lucius or Publius or Quintus; although it did not mean much to Romans, it somehow makes them more complete to us. But never mind. We also have his title, Praefectus Judaeae. This is important, and not just because it settles the debate about what he called himself.

The word "prefect" had a military tang to it; this man was not just an administrator or a revenue-raiser, but also, when required, a fighter on horseback on the wilder fringes of the empire. Pilate often looks like an effete lawyer in the endless paintings of the trial of Jesus, but he ended his career in Judea just as a prefect should, commanding cavalry, putting down an insurrection in Samaria with sufficient violence to get himself recalled to Rome.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/historical-notes-pontius-pilate-a-name-...
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #48 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 5:34pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:24am:
Not even remotely the same.  We are talking about the Apostles who saw Christ, not only rise from the dead but ascend.  I do not see a bunch of men concocting a story and dying for it.  Your example is a bit different in that there is a sect of people who believe their teachings from the Koran, not an eye witness account.


Of course it's different, because you said so! Nope, sorry to disappoint you but it's not different. You're talking about people who lived two thousand years ago and you're using their testimonies as proof of... the validity of their testimonies. As anyone with a modicum of education knows, that's a circular argument and it's invalid. People die for lies all the time and they gladly go to their doom for lies that other people find glaringly obvious.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #49 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 5:41pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 7:27am:
I am citing MULTIPLE independent sources much closer to the event.  These are not historians centuries out.


All of these sources are second hand and they take place decades after the events they're reporting.
None of these sources refers to non Christian documents or non Christian testimonies.

It's still similar to the story of Hitler as told by Nazis. We don't even know what that would look like as Nazis have more than enough documents to counter their allegations. But just imagine if they were the only one remembering Hitler. What story would they tell? And what story would non Nazis report if all they had to deal with were testimonies of Nazis or second, third hand testimonies by other people. There's nothing reliable about the story of Jesus. Part of it could be true but likely a large part of it is pure fabulation.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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