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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border? (Read 1,554 times)
Limey
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #120 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:13am
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Well, I suppose that sometimes á jot of cynicism can creep in to politics...
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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patrick2
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #121 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:14pm
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EF wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 2:15pm:
And here's one from further down in that same link:

Q. How much does it cost U.S. taxpayers to provide health care for undocumented immigrants?

Billions of dollars are spent each year caring for undocumented immigrants, although data are scare on both costs and use of health care. Transient living conditions, undercounting of migrant workers and desire to avoid contact with government agencies limit the nation’s ability to accurately determine the costs of their medical care.

Many hospitals are concerned that the U.S. government will cut money — about $20 billion annually — used to pay for emergency care for undocumented immigrants — mostly in poor urban and rural areas. The health care law will eventually cut that money by half because of the anticipation that fewer people will lack insurance after the law is implemented.[xix]

IOW, they know it's billions but data on costs and use of healthcare are "scarce."

Reading through this entire link and reading other info on undocumented aliens seeking healthcare one comes away with the impression that undocumented aliens only seek healthcare when they really believe there is no other option. IOW, it ain't gonna just get better.  Because they do not want to draw attention to themselves.  It is true that hospitals provide a lot of what they call "uncompensated care," but the vast majority of it is to people who are NOT undocumented immigrants. 

I know you're dug in and that's fine.  You gotta have a bogey man for all of society's ills.  Just like Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's problems, you're blaming illegal aliens for ours.  I get that.  But it just ain't so.


Again, anyone who lives with this every day in southern California would just laugh at your ignorance.  I'll never forget the time I had to take a friend with an attack of gastroenteritis to the ER, which was crowded with illegal aliens, and he had to wait four hours while the illegals were getting such as prenatal checkups of young healthy Mexican women for their anchor babies.  Any ER physician will tell you (go ask one in any big city) that to illegals, the ER is the "doctor" - you go there for any problem that ails you.  Your dragging up the Hitler silliness marks the end of any serious debate from you.
  
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #122 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:19pm
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patrick2 wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:14pm:
Again, anyone who lives with this every day in southern California would just laugh at your ignorance.  I'll never forget the time I had to take a friend with an attack of gastroenteritis to the ER, which was crowded with illegal aliens, and he had to wait four hours while the illegals were getting such as prenatal checkups of young healthy Mexican women for their anchor babies.  Any ER physician will tell you (go ask one in any big city) that to illegals, the ER is the "doctor" - you go there for any problem that ails you.  Your dragging up the Hitler silliness marks the end of any serious debate from you.


"Illegals" you say!

Did you ask for their papers or did you assume their status based on their complexion?
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #123 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:20pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 3:20pm:
Similar here.


Brexit basically came about for a very small number of reasons, and all of them were substantially wrong.
The myth of expensive illegal immigrants was one.


Those who peddle the distortion of facts should take care.

Here in UK it is about to unfold as a self inflicted wound of staggering proportions.


If course, a demonstrably foolish political move based on halfwitted voters fed lies by media outlets with an agenda could not happen to you Americans.


Nope.


The cost of illegal aliens in the US is WELL-DOCUMENTED, and exceeds $54 billion a year.  For example, see:

http://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-a...

Don't agree with Heritage?  Read their study and give a detailed critique of their methodology. 

And quit spreading false information.
  
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patrick2
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #124 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:26pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:19pm:
"Illegals" you say!

Did you ask for their papers or did you assume their status based on their complexion?


REALLY, some of you dolts have to come out here and spout your ignorance on illegals so that everyone can get a laugh.  The local hospital here in my part of orange county serves a few small cities that are about 85% white and 12% Asian.  Yet walk into the ER, and you'll find it crammed with poor-looking Mexicans speaking only Spanish.  Now, what is one to believe - every day, the 1% Hispanics hereabouts all get sick and rush to the ER?  Really, you don't know what you're talking about - either come out here and take a GOOD LOOK at the ground truth, or shut up.  Wink
  
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #125 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:32pm
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patrick2 wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:26pm:
REALLY, some of you dolts have to come out here and spout your ignorance on illegals so that everyone can get a laugh.  The local hospital here in my part of orange county serves a few small cities that are about 85% white and 12% Asian.  Yet walk into the ER, and you'll find it crammed with poor-looking Mexicans speaking only Spanish.  Now, what is one to believe - every day, the 1% Hispanics hereabouts all get sick and rush to the ER?  Really, you don't know what you're talking about - either come out here and take a GOOD LOOK at the ground truth, or shut up.  Wink

Just as I thought.

You assumed.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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patrick2
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #126 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:34pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:32pm:
Just as I thought.

You assumed.


Grin
  
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Limey
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #127 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:46pm
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patrick2 wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:20pm:
The cost of illegal aliens in the US is WELL-DOCUMENTED, and exceeds $54 billion a year.  For example, see:

http://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-a...

Don't agree with Heritage?  Read their study and give a detailed critique of their methodology. 



Thank you for the link.

It seems well argued, the Heritage report, and I have seen similar things about immigration here in the UK I the run up to Brexit.

As with those, however, there are underlying assumptions about immigration which I think tend to make conservative authors go down certain routes. Lefties take other ones, equally unhelpful but in different ways.

Quote:

And quit spreading false information.


What false information?


  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #128 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:51pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:46pm:


What false information?




You said:
Quote:
Brexit basically came about for a very small number of reasons, and all of them were substantially wrong.
The myth of expensive illegal immigrants was one.


It's not a "myth".
  
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Re: Is there any practical benefit to building a wall on our southern border?
Reply #129 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 5:29pm
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patrick2 wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:51pm:
You said:

It's not a "myth".


Ah, I see.


But, you will note that the conservative view of the costs (perfectly exemplified by your link) is looking for a particular answer to a particular question.

A different question might be "why are so many illegal immigrants able to find work in our economy?"

Another might be "what are the benefits long term to us as a nation of immigrants?"

A third might be "why do right wing news outlets get so strident about 'out' groups?"


And, point to note, it actually is a myth in UK.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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