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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple (Read 1,866 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #60 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:38pm
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JohnnyBgood wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:35pm:
We're not truly free. You know that.


Indeed. And one of the ways we are not truly free is that we do not have the right to refuse service.

Quote:
So the south should be allowed to put their signs back up that say "We serve white only"


Yes. Full stop.

But you know as well as I do that the freedom to do X does not mean that doing X is a good idea, or that we are free to avoid the consequences of doing it.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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JohnnyBgood
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #61 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:44pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:38pm:
Indeed. And one of the ways we are not truly free is that we do not have the right to refuse service.


Yes, court often tells us that. Until they say we won't get in trouble for saying no to someone because of their religion race and sex, I won't single out one.
Meaning, I will support being able to say no to gay cakes when you can say no to Muslims or blacks buying bread at a convenience store.
I won't like any, but will accept the no gay cake more.
  

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, when I was dead broke I couldn't picture this.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #62 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:46pm
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JohnnyBgood wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:44pm:
Yes, court often tells us that. Until they say we won't get in trouble for saying no to someone because of their religion race and sex, I won't single out one.
Meaning, I will support being able to say no to gay cakes when you can say no to Muslims or blacks buying bread at a convenience store.
I won't like any, but will accept the no gay cake more.


Well I wouldn't recommend doing so either. The law is the law.

I personally wouldn't give my money to an establishment that discriminated against anyone for any reason that was not based on their actions or histories as individuals.

With that said, I will never stop crying foul where people pass laws making such discrimination illegal, for that is inherently immoral in my book.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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JohnnyBgood
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #63 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:47pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:38pm:
But you know as well as I do that the freedom to do X does not mean that doing X is a good idea, or that we are free to avoid the consequences of doing it.

Good point

Whats the difference between saying no due to sexuality and race?
Which is worse?

To me, they're the same. But no to race is not a good idea. You won't just have to worry about the law then.
  

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, when I was dead broke I couldn't picture this.
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Uncle Ichabod
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #64 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:07pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
The real right to discriminate is not found in religion.

It is found in our natural liberty, our self ownership and the institution of private property.

But that's not an argument the courts are likely to accept, but the religious excuse does seem to carry water.


I'm intrigued by your "If a bullfrog had wings" philosophy.  It reminds me a bit of those adherents to the divine right of kings thinking that they could speak reality into existence.

As a thought experiment I suppose that it's fun to imagine the world operating as you suggest but such things, I'm sure you realize, have been tried and rejected by studied men. Still exploring the consequences of absurd ideas can be fun.





  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #65 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:12pm
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Uncle Ichabod wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:07pm:
I'm intrigued by your "If a bullfrog had wings" philosophy.  It reminds me a bit of those adherents to the divine right of kings thinking that they could speak reality into existence.

As a thought experiment I suppose that it's fun to imagine the world operating as you suggest but such things, I'm sure you realize, have been tried and rejected by studied men. Still exploring the consequences of absurd ideas can be fun.



Well don't stop there.

Take the piss out the idea.

Tell me why the idea is absurd.

For all I see here is mere posturing.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Uncle Ichabod
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #66 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:38pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
Well don't stop there.

Take the piss out the idea.

Tell me why the idea is absurd.

For all I see here is mere posturing.



Clearly you know much about posturing so I don't think I could challenge you there but to take the piss out of the idea, I'd just be repeating the shredding of such ideas by Holcombe, Chomskey, Meltzer to name a few.  No doubt you already know the criticisms and have chosen to reject them.

  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #67 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:40pm
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Uncle Ichabod wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 2:38pm:
Clearly you know much about posturing so I don't think I could challenge you there but to take the piss out of the idea, I'd just be repeating the shredding of such ideas by Holcombe, Chomskey, Meltzer to name a few.  No doubt you already know the criticisms and have chosen to reject them.


Humor me.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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USyeah
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #68 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 4:39pm
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Josie wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 4:51pm:
I'm not the least bit hateful, all I want is my constitutional right not to betray my religious beliefs and spiritual conscience. As a Christian and a cake decorator these Bible verses tell me I shouldn't participate in other people sins... I shouldn't be forced to choose between being able to feed my family and betraying my religious beliefs. Not wanting to bake a cake that will be for an activity that my God has told me is an abomination to him is isn't showing hate, it's hateful otoh to try and force me to associate or put my name on something that God has rebuked and told me he's against. 



1 Timothy 5:22  Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

Leviticus 19:17Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.


so you do not believe in cutting ones hair or shaving their beard, leviticus 19:27.

you do not believe that a woman should go to church for 33 days after giving birth to a boy, 66 days for a girl, leviticus 12:4.
  
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Lomelis
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Re: Trump Administration Backs Baker Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for Gay Couple
Reply #69 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 12:55pm:
I see the religious angle as more of a means of avoiding forced association using the tools the government makes available.  There is no enumerated right to be kept from forced association.  But there is one for religious liberty.

So, yes, it is a form of identity politics, but one specifically called for in the constitution.  But they truly are victims, as are a great many non-religious people, I'm sure.


I agree that they are attempting to use whatever tools at their disposal but I don't really agree that the religion clause was intended to protect these sort of things but to merely protect people from outlawing religions in general and the ability of people to practice their religion.


  

Deny, Ignore, Evade, Distract, Place Blame Elsewhere!  Must defend the Trump Messiah!

But, but, but....but Hillary, but Lynch, but Obama, but Boosh, but Clinton!
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