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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Genocide and mass slaughter (Read 787 times)
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #10 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 2:52pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 6:50am:
Interesting how times change.

Nowadays, in our foolishness, we would not put the murder of children on the same level of naughtiness as kissing a guy if you're a guy, or wearing trousers if you're a lady.

Not sure about French - kissing goats, I think that's still fairly badly thought of but probably a consensus would have it as less naughty than murdering children.


The text doesn't say all those abominations are equally abominable, nonetheless they are all worthy of capital punishment in the OT theocracy... And they are signs today of how depraved our society is becoming.. The biggest judgment is God giving people over to reprobate minds.  Minds that downplay the seriousness of these sins, engage or celebrate degenerate behavior, mock God and his word. 

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18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,g in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


  

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Limey
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:29pm
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So we can agree that the conscientious Christian would abhor the killing of a whole city because God has changed.

Good.

You seem to be leaving the door ajar to mass slaughter at God's command though.

It's something that has often intrigued me. If God, to the best of a Christian's honest and truly held belief, ordered the killing of everyone in a city, would said Christian feel that it was OK to do it?
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #12 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:10pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:29pm:
So we can agree that the conscientious Christian would abhor the killing of a whole city because God has changed.

Good.

You seem to be leaving the door ajar to mass slaughter at God's command though.

It's something that has often intrigued me. If God, to the best of a Christian's honest and truly held belief, ordered the killing of everyone in a city, would said Christian feel that it was OK to do it?


Probably.  In fact, he would probably deem himself disobedient for not doing so.  Does not mean he would not suffer secular consequences for such.  If arrested, charged, and convicted, I fully expect sentence to be carried out. 

But I would also opine that any Christian who truly and honestly believed God told him to kill everyone in a city (or even one person) has a mental health problem, not a revelation from God.

And God does not change in the sense we mortals understand the term.  Being perfect, he can commit no error.  Being omnisicient, he can not acquire new information.  What appears to us to be changes are merely the next steps planned all along.  This is really getting into some deep theology, though, and I only have so many neurons left.  If I fry any more trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, I will become more of a burden to society and my family than I already am.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #13 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:38pm
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EF wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:10pm:
Probably.  In fact, he would probably deem himself disobedient for not doing so.  Does not mean he would not suffer secular consequences for such.  If arrested, charged, and convicted, I fully expect sentence to be carried out. 

But I would also opine that any Christian who truly and honestly believed God told him to kill everyone in a city (or even one person) has a mental health problem, not a revelation from God.

And God does not change in the sense we mortals understand the term.  Being perfect, he can commit no error.  Being omnisicient, he can not acquire new information.  What appears to us to be changes are merely the next steps planned all along.  This is really getting into some deep theology, though, and I only have so many neurons left.  If I fry any more trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, I will become more of a burden to society and my family than I already am.


Hmm.

I was aiming more at the immutability of right /wrong regardless of what any given God might have to say, and hoping for illustrations from naturally good people who would commit to murder if they were told to go to it.


But it's late.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #14 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 1:38pm
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EF wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:10pm:
Probably.  In fact, he would probably deem himself disobedient for not doing so.  Does not mean he would not suffer secular consequences for such.  If arrested, charged, and convicted, I fully expect sentence to be carried out. 

But I would also opine that any Christian who truly and honestly believed God told him to kill everyone in a city (or even one person) has a mental health problem, not a revelation from God.

And God does not change in the sense we mortals understand the term.  Being perfect, he can commit no error.  Being omnisicient, he can not acquire new information.  What appears to us to be changes are merely the next steps planned all along.  This is really getting into some deep theology, though, and I only have so many neurons left.  If I fry any more trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, I will become more of a burden to society and my family than I already am.
So then you believe God never contacts anyone. I mean it'd be silly to say oh sure he contacts us but only about good things. See someone who truly believes in god will say to you, who are you to disobey god's command to kill everyone? So you're just admitting that you don't really believe in god - you put your own personal beliefs above gods.
  
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #15 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 2:37pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:29pm:
So we can agree that the conscientious Christian would abhor the killing of a whole city because God has changed. Good.


No, God has not changed.. The New Testament makes it clear that these things are deserving of God's judgement.  What has changed is the New Covenant in which God is saving people from every nation, kindred, people and tongue.  The New Testament has no mandate for a Theocracy in which people can bring God's judgement for every moral issue. 

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You seem to be leaving the door ajar to mass slaughter at God's command though.


Nope. The New Testament church has been given a mandate and the full revelation of God's will till the 2nd coming.  Anyone pretending to hear a voice from God is a false prophet.


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It's something that has often intrigued me. If God, to the best of a Christian's honest and truly held belief, ordered the killing of everyone in a city, would said Christian feel that it was OK to do it?


God doesn't contradict Himself.  There is to be no mass killing in the New Testament period.
  

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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #16 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 8:21pm
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Muckster wrote on Sep 13th, 2017 at 1:38pm:
So then you believe God never contacts anyone. I mean it'd be silly to say oh sure he contacts us but only about good things. See someone who truly believes in god will say to you, who are you to disobey god's command to kill everyone? So you're just admitting that you don't really believe in god - you put your own personal beliefs above gods.


No, I think you have inferred where I have not implied.  But I'm fine with that.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #17 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 10:39pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:38pm:
Hmm.

I was aiming more at the immutability of right /wrong regardless of what any given God might have to say, and hoping for illustrations from naturally good people who would commit to murder if they were told to go to it.


But it's late.

The problem I consistently read over and over is that you are imparting human characteristics and sin on the Creator.  We tend to make him like us to justify our own sinful lifestyles.  God punished even his own people for their rebellious hearts, he did not judge just the pagan nations.  He laid out the foundations or requirements for his people and the consequences for their disobedience.  Over and over and over again we read how God had to punish his own people.  If he did not then he could never lay claim to being just.  There are penalties for breaking God's law even today, no one will escape his judgement as was very obviousin the Old Testament.  The key is the new covenant in the New Testament that few ever want to focus on and quiet frankly, it is shocking we do not.

  The law demands justice, who ever breaks even one of his commandments is guilty of breaking them all.  So there is a penalty for breaking his law metted out on the day of judgement.  This sets up the very reason for his payment for our sins on our behalf, in that he died to satisfy the penalty each of us owe.  All he is asking is what, sacrifice your first born, twenty hail Marys, whipping ouselves with a cat of nine tails?  No, he SIMPLY asks us to first repent and turn from our sinful ways, and give our lives to Jesus Christ.  Instead we impose all these so called good works not understanding they will hold no weight on judgement day.  So please explain why this seems like too much for So many to do?  He has already done the hard part on our behalf.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #18 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 10:52pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:29pm:
So we can agree that the conscientious Christian would abhor the killing of a whole city because God has changed.

Good.

You seem to be leaving the door ajar to mass slaughter at God's command though.

It's something that has often intrigued me. If God, to the best of a Christian's honest and truly held belief, ordered the killing of everyone in a city, would said Christian feel that it was OK to do it?

Yet there seems to be a complete lack of intrigue of how he paid your fine.  You seem to completely overlook the cost he bore on himself for our behalf so he could redeem us.  Why does this other part of God not stir your interest.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Genocide and mass slaughter
Reply #19 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 1:26pm
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EF wrote on Sep 13th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
No, I think you have inferred where I have not implied.  But I'm fine with that.
Wrong. You said IF someone said god told them to mass kill, that wouldn't be god. So you've ruled out the possibility of god saying such a thing, i.e. bad things. Or are you saying god is constrained to say only things you agree with?
  
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