Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads. (Read 2,744 times)
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #230 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:45pm
Print Post  
Wadsworth wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:40pm:
Let's start with Adam Smith who is well known for his publication Wealth of Nations.  He was Scottish in the 1700's.  During that time, liberalism was an economic and political doctrine associated with free trade and limited government.  During that time in Europe they raised revenue through importation tariffs, thus interfering in trade.  Liberals during that time was against that.  It was mainly about trade and tariffs.  Today, it appears that conservatives are the upholders of free markets.  During the 20th century, both conservatism and liberalism redefined themselves.  Today, libertarians have taken hold of Adam's free market theories more so than liberal or conservatives.  Now lets talk about the definition of liberals and what you call leftism as related to today, not 300 years ago.

What you get wrong is to think this ideology was limited to 300 years ago. In reality, it was thriving all the way through the early 20th century. Mises and Hayek were the great classical liberals of their time. And Hayek passed in the 90s.

The classical liberal project is alive and well today. Libertarians have rebranded classical liberalism and some would even say they distilled it a step further.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wadsworth
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 23,905
Joined: Jul 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #231 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:50pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 9:02pm:
Now for John Locke on liberty and property:

"The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions… (and) when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he, as much as he can, to preserve the rest of mankind, and may not, unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away, or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another."

On religious liberty:

"Oh that our ecclesiastical orators, of every sect, would apply themselves, with all the strength of argument that they are able, to the confounding of men’s errours! But let them spare their persons. Let them not supply their want of reasons with the instruments of force, which belong to another jurisdiction, and do ill become a churchman’s hands. Let them not call in the magistrate’s authority to the aid of their eloquence, or learning; lest perhaps, whilst they pretend only love for the truth, this their intemperate zeal, breathing nothing but fire and sword, betray their ambition, and show that what they desire is temporal dominion."



OK, John Locke

Again, John Locke was a philosopher in the 1700's.  He was considered a Classical Liberal or as some call it an "old" liberal.  "Liberty and private property are intimately related" as compared to the new liberal's philosophy which is "property rights generated an unjust inequality of power that led to a less-than-equal liberty".  Again, we are 20th century liberals and follow the philosophy of today's liberalism, not that of a philosopher of 400 years ago.
  

Definition of Stupid: 
Knowing the truth, seeing evidence of truth, but still believing the lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wadsworth
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 23,905
Joined: Jul 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #232 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 11:07pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 9:02pm:
John Stuart Mill on the sovereignty of the individual:

"The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. … In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

Bastiat sums up the spirit of liberalism nicely here:

"We may be distressed to see writers delight in stirring up all forms of evil passion. However, to hobble the press is also to hobble truth as well as lies. Let us, therefore, take care never to allow the freedom of the press to die.

It is distressing that man should be reduced to earning his bread by the sweat of his brow. It would be better for the state to feed everyone, but this is impossible. Let us at least have the freedom to work.

By associating with one another, men can gain greater advantage from their strength. However, the forms of association are infinite; which is best? Let us not run the risk that the state imposes the worst of these on us; let us seek the right one by trial and error, and demand the freedom of association.

A people has two ways of procuring something. The first is to make it; the second is to make something else and trade it. It is certainly better to have the option than not to have it. Let us therefore demand the freedom to trade.

I am throwing myself into public debate; I am trying to get through to the crowd to preach all the freedoms, the total of which make up liberty."


Now John Stewart Mills

Mills became more sympathetic to socialist ideas in the mid 1800's.  I think due to the changing societies in both Europe and the U.S.  His stance on liberty and property changed because he began to see that the poor did not have the same ability to obtain individual freedom.  His new philosophy was unequal starting points of individuals in society meant that "any notions of individual freedom were abstract and meaningless without significant state intervention".

Now in conclusion, liberalism, just like conservatism has evolved over the years.  It appears to me that the old liberals are the new libertarians.  My whole discussion with you was about liberals today.  I would like to continue that conversation because it started with Q talking about what is happening today with the election of Trump.  lets not go off into irrelevant B,S. and stay on topic. 

Now, why do you think liberals of today are different from leftist of today and why are they not considered to you extreme liberals as conservatives have extreme conservatives and RINOs
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2017 at 9:41am by Wadsworth »  

Definition of Stupid: 
Knowing the truth, seeing evidence of truth, but still believing the lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Demos
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
*****
Online

Hook 'Em

Posts: 19,083
Location: Austin, TX
Joined: Jul 13th, 2003
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #233 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:07am
Print Post  

Wadsworth wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:09pm:
So isn't "new liberalism the same as what you and you clan want to call leftism?

I don't have a clan, and no, it isn't the same. The difference between classical and "new" liberals is the role of the state, but still acceptance of general liberal principles of private property, free markets, etc. The "left" does not accept those latter principles; they generally reject them as it's one of their main disagreements with liberalism. Read and learn.
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:15am by Demos »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Demos
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
*****
Online

Hook 'Em

Posts: 19,083
Location: Austin, TX
Joined: Jul 13th, 2003
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #234 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:10am
Print Post  

Wadsworth wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:12pm:
No, that was not the discussion at all.

It's the discussion we're [me and you] are having.

Quote:
I am well aware of the basic principles of liberalism.

Highly doubt that. 

Quote:
The original discussion was about if there was any differences between leftist and liberals.

And you clearly don't understand the differences, despite having the information right in front of you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #235 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:10am
Print Post  
Wadsworth wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:50pm:
OK, John Locke

Again, John Locke was a philosopher in the 1700's.  He was considered a Classical Liberal or as some call it an "old" liberal.  "Liberty and private property are intimately related" as compared to the new liberal's philosophy which is "property rights generated an unjust inequality of power that led to a less-than-equal liberty".  Again, we are 20th century liberals and follow the philosophy of today's liberalism, not that of a philosopher of 400 years ago.


Yes, Locke, the "founder of liberalism."

Where are the 20th century liberals you ask?

Hayek and Mises are great examples. Gordon Tullock, James Buchanan and Leland Yeager are also noteworthy.
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:27am by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #236 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:15am
Print Post  
Wadsworth wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 11:07pm:
Now in conclusion, liberalism, just like conservatism has evolved over the years.  It appears to me that the old liberals are the new libertarians.


Yes, that's roughly the case.

Though there are classical liberals who do not consider themselves libertarians. Though I would say they are fellow travelers.

Quote:
  My hold discussion with you was about liberals today.  I would like to continue that conversation because it started with Q talking about what is happening today with the election of Trump.  lets not go off into irrelevant B,S. and stay on topic. 


None of this has been irrelevant but it has been way more productive than any discussion about Trump would have been.

I think real progress has been achieved here.

Quote:
Now, why do you think liberals of today are different from leftist of today and why are they not considered to you extreme liberals as conservatives have extreme conservatives and RINOs

At a certain point all ideologies have degrees of disagreement. But when you abandon the essential principles of an idea, that's no longer a matter of a degree of disagreement. That's wholesale disagreement.

And I would argue you find that between classical liberals and left liberals.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wadsworth
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 23,905
Joined: Jul 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #237 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 8:01am
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:45pm:
What you get wrong is to think this ideology was limited to 300 years ago. In reality, it was thriving all the way through the early 20th century. Mises and Hayek were the great classical liberals of their time. And Hayek passed in the 90s.

The classical liberal project is alive and well today. Libertarians have rebranded classical liberalism and some would even say they distilled it a step further.

As I said, why are we talking about "classical liberalism"?  It has nothing to do with the liberals of today that voted for Hilary Clinton and Barrack Obama and has more to do with the philosophies of libertarianism.  So you have not proven that today's liberals are totally different than what you call a leftist.  As I said, there are extremes on both sides.  The far left  and the far right.
  

Definition of Stupid: 
Knowing the truth, seeing evidence of truth, but still believing the lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wadsworth
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 23,905
Joined: Jul 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #238 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 8:08am
Print Post  
Demos wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:07am:
I don't have a clan, and no, it isn't the same. The difference between classical and "new" liberals is the role of the state, but still acceptance of general liberal principles of private property, free markets, etc. The "left" does not accept those latter principles; they generally reject them as it's one of their main disagreements with liberalism. Read and learn.

Oh God Demos, No liberal today subscribe to a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and consumers.  Liberals like to regulate the market.  You are confused or are you playing along with TL?  Not sure, but again. Today's liberals are the same as what you call a leftist.
  

Definition of Stupid: 
Knowing the truth, seeing evidence of truth, but still believing the lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wadsworth
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 23,905
Joined: Jul 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.
Reply #239 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 8:12am
Print Post  
Demos wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:10am:
It's the discussion we're [me and you] are having.

Highly doubt that. 

And you clearly don't understand the differences, despite having the information right in front of you.

No, you did not read the entire thread.  I never disagreed with the evolution of liberalism.  That was TL's thing to divert the conversation away from the simple fact that "today's liberal and what he and Q calls leftist are the same.  They want to act like they are totally different based on some B.S TL conjured up about liberal theories of some 300 years ago.  You are really misguided by TL if you don't realize that what he and Q call leftist are liberals who are not moderate and more extreme.  But go along with them if that is your thing. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2017 at 9:45am by Wadsworth »  

Definition of Stupid: 
Knowing the truth, seeing evidence of truth, but still believing the lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › A Conversation With Wadsworth. Ask me anything Wads.

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules