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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Machine guns and the Second Amendment (Read 1,370 times)
patrick2
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Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Oct 6th, 2017 at 2:02am
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Background:

Statements by the Founding Fathers make clear that the point of the Second Amendment is that people have a right to self defense.  Effective self defense.   What are the threats against a person or society?  One dichotomy is that individuals or whole societies can be threatened, the latter by foreign or domestic governments.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it.....


How are they to abolish such governments?  In the revolution, it took guns.

The other category is individuals defending themselves:

Quote:
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776


Does the second amendment prohibit the illegalization of private ownership of artillery?  No - because such weapons cannot reasonably related to individual self-defense.  When used defensively, they are designed to attack such as machines of war, like tanks, present only during war time, when defense will be effected with national military forces.

Now, how about machine guns?  There doesn't seem currently to be a threat against individuals for which that would be an appropriate defense.  But times change.  Now we have a very divided society, which the leftwing is trying to balkanize even more by the retention and importation of millions of illegal aliens.  We have mobs of antifa thugs running around the country shutting down free speech and trashing cities.  People dressed in black, fascist, attacking opposing political rallies, and espousing socialism.  Does that remind you of anybody?  Maybe something in Germany in the 1930s?  People never think civil wars can happen, but they do, and in this country already once.  A future civil war wouldn't have the nice geographical boundaries as the last one - both sides would be everywhere at once.
  
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USyeah
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #1 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:27pm
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automatic weapons are regulated & will stay that way. bump stocks are going down, they are the sacrificial lamb in the current uproar.

  
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Harry
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #2 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:29pm
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USyeah wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
automatic weapons are regulated & will stay that way. bump stocks are going down, they are the sacrificial lamb in the current uproar.



The question you should be asking, is why?
  
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The Wreath of Khan
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #3 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:40pm
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patrick2 wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 2:02am:
Background:

Statements by the Founding Fathers make clear that the point of the Second Amendment is that people have a right to self defense. 



The 2nd Amendment has never had anything to do with self defense.


Former chief justice Burger wrote in Parade magazine in 1990 that the Second Amendment grew out of the Founding Fathers' belief that a state military force was necessary to protect the security of the state. He quotes Elbridge Gerry, one of the founders and eventually James Madison's vice president, as arguing that a state militia was necessary "to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty."

Burger acknowledges that in the past 200 years national defense has eclipsed the role played by state militias, but says, "A state militia, like a rifle and powder horn, was as much a part of life as the automobile is today; pistols were largely for officers, aristocrats – and dueling."


The Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud,' on the American public," former chief justice Warren E. Burger said in a 1991 interview on PBS's "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour." Burger has said often that the "right to bear arms" belongs to the states, and he has attacked the NRA for fostering the opposite view.

  
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #4 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:43pm
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The Wreath of Khan wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:40pm:
The 2nd Amendment has never had anything to do with self defense.


Former chief justice Burger wrote in Parade magazine in 1990 that the Second Amendment grew out of the Founding Fathers' belief that a state military force was necessary to protect the security of the state. He quotes Elbridge Gerry, one of the founders and eventually James Madison's vice president, as arguing that a state militia was necessary "to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty."

Burger acknowledges that in the past 200 years national defense has eclipsed the role played by state militias, but says, "A state militia, like a rifle and powder horn, was as much a part of life as the automobile is today; pistols were largely for officers, aristocrats – and dueling."


The Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud,' on the American public," former chief justice Warren E. Burger said in a 1991 interview on PBS's "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour." Burger has said often that the "right to bear arms" belongs to the states, and he has attacked the NRA for fostering the opposite view.



Quote:
Former chief justice Burger wrote in Parade magazine in

Yup.1990

  
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20TRUMP20
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #5 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:46pm
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patrick2 wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 2:02am:
Background:

Statements by the Founding Fathers make clear that the point of the Second Amendment is that people have a right to self defense.  Effective self defense.   What are the threats against a person or society?  One dichotomy is that individuals or whole societies can be threatened, the latter by foreign or domestic governments.

From the Declaration of Independence:


How are they to abolish such governments?  In the revolution, it took guns.

The other category is individuals defending themselves:


Does the second amendment prohibit the illegalization of private ownership of artillery?  No - because such weapons cannot reasonably related to individual self-defense.  When used defensively, they are designed to attack such as machines of war, like tanks, present only during war time, when defense will be effected with national military forces.

Now, how about machine guns?  There doesn't seem currently to be a threat against individuals for which that would be an appropriate defense.  But times change.  Now we have a very divided society, which the leftwing is trying to balkanize even more by the retention and importation of millions of illegal aliens.  We have mobs of antifa thugs running around the country shutting down free speech and trashing cities.  People dressed in black, fascist, attacking opposing political rallies, and espousing socialism.  Does that remind you of anybody?  Maybe something in Germany in the 1930s?  People never think civil wars can happen, but they do, and in this country already once.  A future civil war wouldn't have the nice geographical boundaries as the last one - both sides would be everywhere at once.


The 2nd Amendment never mentions self-defense so your entire premise is ridiculous and your argument goes downhill from there,
and this is coming from a person who has no qualms about owning whatever type of weapon that I choose to own responsibly.
  

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patrick2
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:16am
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The Wreath of Khan wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:40pm:
The 2nd Amendment has never had anything to do with self defense.


Former chief justice Burger wrote in Parade magazine in 1990 that the Second Amendment grew out of the Founding Fathers' belief that a state military force was necessary to protect the security of the state. He quotes Elbridge Gerry, one of the founders and eventually James Madison's vice president, as arguing that a state militia was necessary "to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty."

Burger acknowledges that in the past 200 years national defense has eclipsed the role played by state militias, but says, "A state militia, like a rifle and powder horn, was as much a part of life as the automobile is today; pistols were largely for officers, aristocrats – and dueling."


The Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud,' on the American public," former chief justice Warren E. Burger said in a 1991 interview on PBS's "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour." Burger has said often that the "right to bear arms" belongs to the states, and he has attacked the NRA for fostering the opposite view.



Burger was a RINO statist whose comments contradict the known plain facts of the Founders beliefs.
  
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patrick2
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:22am
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20TRUMP20 wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:46pm:
The 2nd Amendment never mentions self-defense so your entire premise is ridiculous and your argument goes downhill from there,
and this is coming from a person who has no qualms about owning whatever type of weapon that I choose to own responsibly.


You offer no relevant facts and no arguments. Come back when you have either.   Wink  Why did the Founders enshrine this right?  So that men could shoot turkeys at the county fair?   Grin A number of the rights specified in the Bill of Rights don't give a reason why, but the second amendment right of self defense is implicit in using the word "security".
  
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JohnnyBgood
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 9:05am
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the 2nd amendment came about to protect us from a British invasion.
Im not too worried. I think they'll leave us be.
  

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The Wreath of Khan
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Re: Machine guns and the Second Amendment
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 9:42am
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JohnnyBgood wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 9:05am:
the 2nd amendment came about to protect us from a British invasion.
Im not too worried. I think they'll leave us be.


Correct.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There's not one damn word in that about self defense.  It is, as you say, about the readiness and availability of State's militias rather than a standing Federal army.

The NRA, as Trump has done, preys on the stupidity of Americas.


  
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