Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › extreme unction
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) extreme unction (Read 1,455 times)
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,881
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #10 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 2:36pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 7:53pm:


This link agrees that Extreme Unction is mentioned in the Bible.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,881
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: extreme unction
Reply #11 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:10pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 2:36pm:
This link agrees that Extreme Unction is mentioned in the Bible.


I don't see it.  It does mention anointing the sick, but nowhere does it say it "conveys grace," which is the principle behind the Catholic sacrament of extreme unction. 

But hey, I'm okay with it if it floats your boat.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,881
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #12 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:55pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:10pm:
I don't see it.  It does mention anointing the sick, but nowhere does it say it "conveys grace," which is the principle behind the Catholic sacrament of extreme unction.


St. James says that sins of a sick person who is prayed over will be forgiven.  I don't know if that is the same thing as "conveys grace" or not, but I do know that the Extreme Unction prayer over the sick mentions the forgiveness of sins.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,141
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #13 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 7:31pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:55pm:
St. James says that sins of a sick person who is prayed over will be forgiven.  I don't know if that is the same thing as "conveys grace" or not, but I do know that the Extreme Unction prayer over the sick mentions the forgiveness of sins.

Catholics state only a Priest can offer unction.  No where in scripture is that ever stated.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,141
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #14 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 7:33pm
Print Post  
Only by your confession can you be forgiven and given God's grace and mercy.  No Priest is involved.  It is solely your decision, even on the death bed.  You can be forgiven up till your death, after your passing if you have not received forgiveness you then have committed the unpardonable sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,881
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: extreme unction
Reply #15 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 9:48am
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 3:55pm:
St. James says that sins of a sick person who is prayed over will be forgiven.  I don't know if that is the same thing as "conveys grace" or not, but I do know that the Extreme Unction prayer over the sick mentions the forgiveness of sins.


I wanted to put some thought and research into my response, more for my benefit than anybody else’s.  Without taking away anything from what Seawolf has written, I offer this.

The Reformers of the 1500’s and later, and today’s non-Catholic denominations, have differing opinions about what this verse (James 5:15) means.  But they are all in agreement that it does NOT mean what the Roman Catholic church transmogrified it into: an elevation of the office of Priest.  I put that in caps because the history of the Roman Catholic church has been one of putting the priesthood between the rank and file and Jesus.  Like gatekeepers.  To get to Jesus, one must first find a Priest.  That is not taught in scripture.

This almost deification of the parish priest is one reason some of them have been able to get away with playing with little boys and girls.  I feel sure it’s very small minority, but when one is taught from birth that the parish priest is God’s anointed, to be obeyed, holding the keys to eternal life, one tends to have a tad too much “respect” for him.  This kind of thing happens in non-Catholic congregations, too, but it has been institutionalized in the Catholic church.  Made a part of their dogma.

And while I’m on the subject, this “making of saints” is a Roman Catholic transmogrification of scripture, too.  As is the belief that Mary is a “co-redemptrix” with Jesus.   There is but one Mediator, and that is Jesus.  There is no requirement of a priest, saint, or other intermediary to gain access to Him.  There are those whose calling is to “go tell,” but that’s a far cry from being a gatekeeper.  There is no gatekeeper between humans and Jesus, and any teaching that says otherwise is more about elevating the status of the alleged gatekeeper than it is about saving souls.

  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,881
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #16 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 3:29pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 7:31pm:
Catholics state only a Priest can offer unction.  No where in scripture is that ever stated.


James says that the sick person should call the elders of the church.  In Greek, the word elder is "presbuteros", from which we get the English words presbyter and Presbyterian.  There is some argument among NT scholars, but most churches have taken presbyters to be the same thing as pastors.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,141
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #17 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:47pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 3:29pm:
James says that the sick person should call the elders of the church.  In Greek, the word elder is "presbuteros", from which we get the English words presbyter and Presbyterian.  There is some argument among NT scholars, but most churches have taken presbyters to be the same thing as pastors.

The verse would help me to see what you are inferring but note it is about the sick, not about salvation.  I would quote Jesus with this passage.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

This clearly shows us that Jesus is the ONLY authority for salvation.


Romans 10:9-10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I also note the word YOU, which puts the burden of receiving salvation solely on the individual and no one else and Paul tells us just how it should be done.  No one has the authority to grant you salvation outside of Jesus Christ, not a Priest, a Pastor, a Rabbi...  It must come from you.  Rabbit, my father was on his death bed when I visited him, I prayed God would give me a chance to speak to him.  Just as I arrived he opened his eyes against the expectation of the doctors, still though in a coma.  I remember the nurses words when she said this was not suppose to happen and I told her I prayed and God answered my prayer.  I took this opportunity and witnessed to my father and invited a local Pastor to witness and pray over my father.  I have no idea if he accepted Christ and will never know on this side of life.  I pray he did and I hope I will see him again.
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:54pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,881
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #18 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 5:41pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:47pm:
The verse would help me to see what you are inferring but note it is about the sick, not about salvation.  I would quote Jesus with this passage.


Are any among you suffering?  They should pray.  Are any cheerful?  They should sing songs of praise.  Are any among you sick?  They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.  The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.  James 5:13-16, NRSV (emphasis mine).

This passage clearly says that the sick ought to have the presbyters pray over them and anoint them with oil, not just any Christian.  The passage also says that this action will cause their sins to be forgiven.  Note that the forgiveness is in the passive tense, which implies that it's not the presbyter who has the power to forgive.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,881
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: extreme unction
Reply #19 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 5:54pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 9:48am:
The Reformers of the 1500’s and later, and today’s non-Catholic denominations, have differing opinions about what this verse (James 5:15) means.  But they are all in agreement that it does NOT mean what the Roman Catholic church transmogrified it into: an elevation of the office of Priest.


Well okay, but the passage pretty clearly gives some authority to pastors that it doesn't give to the laity, right?  There are plenty of vague and confusing passages in the Bible, but this one is clear, like most of the Epistle of James.

Quote:
To get to Jesus, one must first find a Priest.  That is not taught in scripture.


It's not taught in the Catholic Church, either, so far as I understand.

Quote:
This almost deification of the parish priest is one reason some of them have been able to get away with playing with little boys and girls.


Protestant pastors have done it, too, as have football coaches, creepy uncles, and on and on.  The Catholic Church has no monopoly on molesters, either within Christianity or without it.

From the stories I've read, the molester priests use pretty standard tactics to abuse children.  The typical order is that the molester chooses a vulnerable child, "grooms" them, then molests.  The molester tells the child not to tell and that no one will believe him/her and makes the child feel as though s/he did something wrong or shameful.  That's the standard formula, and we see it among Catholic priests, teachers, coaches, and Protestant pastors.

The Catholic Church's pedophilia problem is a much bigger story than the pedophilia at your local independent church, but that's because the Catholic Church is much, much larger.  It's worth noting that the pedophilia problem at Penn State got an enormous amount of attention, too.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › extreme unction

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
A1 News Page
David Limbaugh
Political Frog
Conservatives Directory
President Trump Approval Poll
Presidential Party Election Poll News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules