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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads? (Read 677 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #10 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 10:21pm
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Yes, I am curious as to what you said.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Limey
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #11 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 4:48am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 10:21pm:
Yes, I am curious as to what you said.



Hi Patrick,  hope it's OK to use you for this..  I just started a thread with the aim of utterly dismantling the foundation of the libertarian worldview (ambitious??)  and have a prediction about one of the things West and Lomelis will say. Can I vouchsafe it to you as a trustworthy neutral?

I think they will say the "nudge"  theory is paternalism,and that even irrational choices are valid.



...is what I pm'd.
....
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #12 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 5:40am
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Limey wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 3:55pm:
Lol. Sorry West, TL,  Lomelis,  only teasing.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/nobel-prize...

...however,  given the central plank of your craaaazy philosophy is the rationality of decision making, food for thought?


I can anticipate the immediate response,  and to prove how clever I am, I shall pm a brief version to a trustworthy neutral, our friend Patrick2.


I don't understand why he got a prize for stating the obvious. 

Of course if you "nudge" or make one behavior deemed undesirable slightly more expensive you will nudge -some- people to alter their behaviors in some manner to accommodate that extra cost (like turning to the black market or quitting the behavior all together).  Or the same could be said about nudging or providing incentives in a positive manner, like rewarding people for better behaviors, some will actually perform and some will simply find a means to take advantage of the system.

I think I'm missing something about the op.



  

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But, but, but....but Hillary, but Lynch, but Obama, but Boosh, but Clinton!
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Limey
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #13 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 7:50am
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Lomelis wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 5:40am:
I don't understand why he got a prize for stating the obvious. 

Of course if you "nudge" or make one behavior deemed undesirable slightly more expensive you will nudge -some- people to alter their behaviors in some manner to accommodate that extra cost (like turning to the black market or quitting the behavior all together).  Or the same could be said about nudging or providing incentives in a positive manner, like rewarding people for better behaviors, some will actually perform and some will simply find a means to take advantage of the system.

I think I'm missing something about the op.





Well, my op was a reductio ad absurdum of the Libertarian position, to the bare bones about all transactions being rational, thus central planning or other market distortion is always inefficient.


The notion that people make irrational decisions about transactions undermines that.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #14 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:42am
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Limey wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 3:55pm:
Lol. Sorry West, TL,  Lomelis,  only teasing.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/nobel-prize...

...however,  given the central plank of your craaaazy philosophy is the rationality of decision making, food for thought?


I can anticipate the immediate response,  and to prove how clever I am, I shall pm a brief version to a trustworthy neutral, our friend Patrick2.



No.  But it proves human beings can be influenced and that the government is trying to do so.
Even more disconcerting, corporations are doing so in league with the government and with the government's blessing.

In fact I think it calls for MORE libertarian perspective not less.

Maybe it's just me.  I guess I'm just instantly annoyed by attempts to influence me.  I remember when my employer just started taking my money to put in a 401k managed by Wells Fargo.  I was gone the day they had some meeting saying we had to "opt out" by a specific date and sign paperwork saying we didn't want to.

I'm a big enough prick that I fought for a year to get the shit shut off (they refused to do so at first because I didn't sign the proper form in time) and then fought to get my money back ... by the time I quit that job and they returned the money they stole I'd lost half of it in the 2008 recession. 

Ah nudging.  The idea that making the things the government thinks is good for you easy while things the government thinks are bad for you harder.  Like ... don't do anything and we'll save your money for you!  Getting out of it is going to be a bureaucratic nightmare tho so ... you'll "rationally" decide to just participate.

Such a great idea.  What could possibly go wrong?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #15 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 10:53am
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I think were converging on the key issue here- the nature of value.

The key claim being made here by the proponents of the nudge theory is that people in reality do not act or choose in the way predicted by neo-classical models of rationality and choice. I agree with that.

The model of choice they use assumes people have no biases and are consistent. And example of a bias would be the "present bias."

The present bias occurs when someone discounts the future in favor of present pleasures. Put in other words, this is a person who is said to be minimizing the future costs of an action or not taking full account of them. A person who smokes cigarettes might fit the bill, or a person who eats too much unhealthy food.

The problem for the nudge theory is that there is no such thing as objectively true valuations. This is all a matter of personal taste.

For example, who can say what taking the "full" account of future costs looks like?

If someone prefers to smoke  without fully preparing for the future costs, there is nothing objective to look at which proves that preference is wrong. There is no "objectively correct" amount of risk.

To say it is wrong or irrational because it involves some bias or some divergence from what a perfectly rational automaton would do, is to implicitly argue that the model itself comprises some objective standard of value and rationality.

But doing so would require an objective theory of value and we do not have one.

In Thaler's theory, a truly rational actor would "never worry about the marginal disutility of worrying about marginal utility."

What does that mean?

It means that the rational actor calculates the net effect on marginal utility for every decision, including discounting future costs and benefits.

This would require expending a great deal of thought and energy on the consideration of minutiae.

The problem with that is many people prefer not to have to go through all that trouble because they don't value that level of precision. Perhaps they value their time more, or what have you.

Who are we as economists to say that people's preferences are wrong?

Ultimately, the argument that people are irrational because they do not behave like automatons implies some standard of objective value.

And it comes apart when one takes a subjective view of value.

We can admit people are not perfectly rational calculation machines without holding such an impossible view of human decision making up as some sort of objective standard.
« Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:34am by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Does this prove Libertarianismists/free market preachers to be utter dickheads?
Reply #16 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 10:55am
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Limey wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 4:48am:
Hi Patrick,  hope it's OK to use you for this..  I just started a thread with the aim of utterly dismantling the foundation of the libertarian worldview (ambitious??)  and have a prediction about one of the things West and Lomelis will say. Can I vouchsafe it to you as a trustworthy neutral?

I think they will say the "nudge"  theory is paternalism,and that even irrational choices are valid.



...is what I pm'd.
....

Yeah, that's on point.

You didn't include the part about the planners themselves suffering from the same irrationality, or the part about the way the market helps us discover and correct errors, but other than that you are spot on.
« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:09pm by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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