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Frank1
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Logos and Mythos
Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:16pm
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So I have been reading about Greek mythology, and in doing so came upon a discussion of the terms logos and mythos. 

The author described logos as what can be talked about rationally.

Mythos, by contrast, is not rational, or at least not necessarily so.

Mythos, rather than relying on an outside, rational justification, has its truth in itself.  Often, this truth is intuitively perceived through its beauty.  Thus, as Plato said, "Beauty is the splendor of the truth."

This relates to what I have come to know about some of the best conservative thinkers.  Almost since the very beginning of conservatism, as it rose from the ashes of the French Revolution, there was an insistence that many traditions cannot be justified on rational grounds.  Their justification goes deeper, it is intuitive.  These traditions are justified by their innate nobleness, beauty and goodness. 

Often one comes up short when attempting to make bullet-proof rational defenses of traditions.

Of course, the 20th century witnessed attempts to make a purely rational society.  Communism, one of the greatest horrors ever to exist, was essentially an attempt to replace tradition with a fully rationalized society.

Perhaps this is why many traditional thinkers do not rely only on rational arguments, but also rely on beauty, in the form of such things as poetry, music, visual art and literature, to justify their world views.


In sum, I think, it could be said that the ultimate base of tradition is beyond rationality.  This necessarily poses a problem for a traditionalist living in a hyper-rationalist society such as ours (though actually, rationalist domination of our society, though still pretty strong, has been fraying for decades...but unfortunately rationality is not being superseded by beauty/tradition, but by a base and evil irrationality of the lowest order, a chaotic, anything goes irrationality...it seems we must hit absolute rock bottom before we can return to Tradition).
« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:42pm by Frank1 »  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Limey
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #1 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 7:28pm
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The totalitarian nightmare of Soviet Communism was indeed a near - peerless horror.


Now, Frank, take a look at the traditional traditions which preceded it and tell us who in their right mind would want that back?
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #2 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 11:11pm
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Limey wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 7:28pm:
The totalitarian nightmare of Soviet Communism was indeed a near - peerless horror.


Now, Frank, take a look at the traditional traditions which preceded it and tell us who in their right mind would want that back?


You would. You, and your kind worshiped the Soviet Union and want it back.

The voice of the left rails against the ascendancy of freedom represented by American supremacy in the world.
  
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #3 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:37am
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Frank1 wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:16pm:
So I have been reading about Greek mythology, and in doing so came upon a discussion of the terms logos and mythos. 

The author described logos as what can be talked about rationally.

Mythos, by contrast, is not rational, or at least not necessarily so.

Mythos, rather than relying on an outside, rational justification, has its truth in itself.  Often, this truth is intuitively perceived through its beauty.  Thus, as Plato said, "Beauty is the splendor of the truth."

This relates to what I have come to know about some of the best conservative thinkers.  Almost since the very beginning of conservatism, as it rose from the ashes of the French Revolution, there was an insistence that many traditions cannot be justified on rational grounds.  Their justification goes deeper, it is intuitive.  These traditions are justified by their innate nobleness, beauty and goodness. 

Often one comes up short when attempting to make bullet-proof rational defenses of traditions.

Of course, the 20th century witnessed attempts to make a purely rational society.  Communism, one of the greatest horrors ever to exist, was essentially an attempt to replace tradition with a fully rationalized society.

Perhaps this is why many traditional thinkers do not rely only on rational arguments, but also rely on beauty, in the form of such things as poetry, music, visual art and literature, to justify their world views.


In sum, I think, it could be said that the ultimate base of tradition is beyond rationality.  This necessarily poses a problem for a traditionalist living in a hyper-rationalist society such as ours (though actually, rationalist domination of our society, though still pretty strong, has been fraying for decades...but unfortunately rationality is not being superseded by beauty/tradition, but by a base and evil irrationality of the lowest order, a chaotic, anything goes irrationality...it seems we must hit absolute rock bottom before we can return to Tradition).


A man owning another man and treating the slave like his property, was tradition.  So traditional as a matter of fact that Jesus Himself did not see fit to speak out against it.

F*ck tradition, except this one where I school you on your errors and then wear sunglasses.

Cool

There are plenty traditions I'm quite fine to say good riddance to.  Slavery, the GOP, you name it.
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #4 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:48am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:37am:
A man owning another man and treating the slave like his property, was tradition.  So traditional as a matter of fact that Jesus Himself did not see fit to speak out against it.

F*ck tradition, except this one where I school you on your errors and then wear sunglasses.

Cool

There are plenty traditions I'm quite fine to say good riddance to.  Slavery, the GOP, you name it. 


Obviously by "traditional" I do not mean the GOP.  I think you would know this.  The GOP is part of the modern world.  It is an ideological political party.  Nothing traditional about it.

Slavery is not really a tradition, more of just a fact.  Any type of economic system above that of a tribal level necessitates some people working for others. 

You realize that conditions today in many factories throughout the world are not really much different from the worst types of slavery?  We have all heard of the infamous "suicide nets" in Chinese factories, which exist to keep workers from jumping to their deaths.

I think the real issue here is that we see the term "slavery" and automatically think of the most horrific abuse, but of course there were all types of slavery, from a slavery where the slave was almost a member of the family to Caribbean style mass race-slavery where the slaves were treated like dogs.

The worst thing about American slavery was its racial basis, because it meant that all people of one color were viewed as innately inferior.  In slavery that is not race-based a slave who earns their freedom (as they often did) could blend into the mainstream society.  But in a race-based system the black person, even if freed, always carried the taint of an inferior by the fact of their skin color.

Anyways, slavery, like other types of economic relations, comes in all types.

In the rural Philippines, from where my wife hails, it is still common for families with means to have multiple household servants.  These are not slaves, but they live in quarters by the family house.  My wife's family has cooks, cleaners and drivers who live in quarters alongside the family house.  These servants are treated for the most part like members of the family.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #5 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:58am
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Frank1 wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:48am:
Obviously by "traditional" I do not mean the GOP.  I think you would know this.  The GOP is part of the modern world.  It is an ideological political party.  Nothing traditional about it.

Slavery is not really a tradition, more of just a fact.  Any type of economic system above that of a tribal level necessitates some people working for others. 

You realize that conditions today in many factories throughout the world are not really much different from the worst types of slavery?  We have all heard of the infamous "suicide nets" in Chinese factories, which exist to keep workers from jumping to their deaths.

I think the real issue here is that we see the term "slavery" and automatically think of the most horrific abuse, but of course there were all types of slavery, from a slavery where the slave was almost a member of the family to Caribbean style mass race-slavery where the slaves were treated like dogs.

The worst thing about American slavery was its racial basis, because it meant that all people of one color were viewed as innately inferior.  In slavery that is not race-based a slave who earns their freedom (as they often did) could blend into the mainstream society.  But in a race-based system the black person, even if freed, always carried the taint of an inferior by the fact of their skin color.

Anyways, slavery, like other types of economic relations, comes in all types.

In the rural Philippines, from where my wife hails, it is still common for families with means to have multiple household servants.  These are not slaves, but they live in quarters by the family house.  My wife's family has cooks, cleaners and drivers who live in quarters alongside the family house.  These servants are treated for the most part like members of the family.


Slavery is not really a tradition, more of just a fact.

Grin

Really?  So all those traditions that do not appeal to you, weren't really traditions, they just sort of happened?  And then apparently kept just happening for a millennia.

Grin


  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: Logos and Mythos
Reply #6 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:36pm
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Frank1 wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:16pm:
Mythos, by contrast, is not rational, or at least not necessarily so.

Mythos, rather than relying on an outside, rational justification, has its truth in itself.  Often, this truth is intuitively perceived through its beauty.  Thus, as Plato said, "Beauty is the splendor of the truth."


Beauty is, itself, subject to cultural conditioning.  I'll give a bizarre, unnerving example.  It's now very common for Asian celebrities and actors/actresses to have surgery to remove their epicanthic folds.  The folds are the pieces of skin that cover part of their eyes, which makes them appear slanted to Westerners.  This surgery is practically required if you want to model in Asia, male or female.

By contrast, there are tens of millions of people of Asian descent in North America and Europe, and epicanthic removal is incredibly rare.  My Asian-American friends are horrified by the practice, whereas Asians would find most of them plain or ugly due to their folds.

Since beauty is subjective, it certainly cannot function as truth, especially in the way you want it to.

Quote:
Of course, the 20th century witnessed attempts to make a purely rational society.  Communism, one of the greatest horrors ever to exist, was essentially an attempt to replace tradition with a fully rationalized society.


Unfortunately, plenty of traditions were awful.  Foot-binding is a minor example.  Human sacrifice was a major one.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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