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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me. (Read 179 times)
Queshank
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Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:16pm
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Since male piglike behavior is in the news nonstop these days, it's worth taking a look at it objectively rather than simply castigating men for pigs. 

That's easy.  I've been doing it all my life.  I think men are pigs.  I think that's objectively undeniable.  If you disagree I simply have to ask ... have you ever hung out with men?  Have you ever met one? 

But let's not pretend this is completely one sided. 

I don't hit on women.  I never have.  I've always been kind of an odd duck.  The way my friends started to behave when we became teenagers was always a little disturbing. 

I consider Trump's behavior towards women disturbing.  I consider Clinton's behavior towards women disturbing.  I considered the goofy guy who delivered cheese to a store I worked at's behavior towards one of my coworkers disturbing.  I considered the way the frozen pizza delivery driver talked about wanting to "bend" my boss "over a table and just go to town" disturbing. 

I considered the way people for a delivery service I worked for talked about the women who would sign for packages at dropoff points on our routes incredibly disturbing.

So much so in fact that I sat down and talked with my wife about it for awhile one night. 

And she said something that I've been thinking about for the five years since.  She said "Oh honey.  Do you have ANY idea how women talk about the delivery driver after he's dropped off his package? Do you know how many times I've heard women talk about how this or that delivery driver can deliver a package to her any ole time he wants and on and on?  I think women are FAR more lewd when they're alone with each other than anything you're describing to me right now."

Hmm.  I've been puzzling over it for quite awhile now.

When the Twilight series came out my teenage daughter read them.  Wanting to know what the big f'ing deal was, I read them as well.  And found them absolutely repulsive even if we ignore the heavy creepy sexual stalker vibe and concentrate on the shitty writing alone.  Yet they were top sellers, and even women in my literature classes in college thought they were the best novels they've ever read.  I tried very hard not to be disdainful in conversations, but found I couldn't stop myself.

The lesson learned?  It's okay for men to stalk women whose names they don't even know, and creep into their bedrooms at night and watch them while they sleep ... so long as they're good looking. 

WTF? 

I had many, many conversations about this with my daughter.

When I was a kid and bored shitless back in the pre Internet days when I was out of reading material I even read some of my older sister's Harlequin romance novels.  Jesus.

And then "50 Shades of Grey" comes along. 

I started to reach an inevitable conclusion.  As an awkward, probably somewhere on the spectrum teenager with absolutely zero game (both my first wife and my current wife became my girlfriends at THEIR initiation with my current wife later telling me she was amused at how I ignored all of her "signals" for months ahead of time while we were "just friends") it never occurred to me what a two way street the sex game was between men and women.

But it truly is inescapable if you step back and look at it.

Maybe the sexually aggressive hard sell men engage in wouldn't be so prevalent if it didn't work 80% of the time.  I mean ... if you're batting .800 ...that's a hell of a lot of incentive to keep trying the approach.

Maybe women need to own up to "Harlequin Romance/Twilight/50 Shades of Grey" culture on THEIR side of the ledger a bit if they truly want change?

There's a fine line between welcome and unwelcome sexual advances.  And they pretty much boil down to "This hot guy hit on me in a bar last night so I took him home." and "This guy with beer on his breath drunk as hell and crappity smacking annoying kept hitting on me in a bar last night so I called the police."

Reading the tea leaves I'm gonna bet that's gonna be part of a national conversation pretty soon. 

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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #1 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:19pm
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Kind of along those lines, thigh high slits on dresses and showing lots of cleavage kind of invite "being objectified."  Not that it's an invitation for even a grope, mind you.  But it clearly is an invitation to be "objectified."
  

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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #2 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:21pm
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We're animals with a built in desire to be fruitful and multiply. Nothing odd at all about having sexual desires.
  
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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #3 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:22pm
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EF wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:19pm:
Kind of along those lines, thigh high slits on dresses and showing lots of cleavage kind of invite "being objectified."  Not that it's an invitation for even a grope, mind you.  But it clearly is an invitation to be "objectified."


Feminism took a very wrong turn at some point with the Madonna, Britney Spears stuff winning out in my opinion.  Some women.  Note I said some.  Some women seem to do far more objectifying of women than some men.

Dave Chappelle had a bit about it in one of his standup bits that I've been mulling over since i first saw it years ago.

"You might not be a whore ... but you're wearing a whore's uniform.  That shit is CONFUSING to a man in a bar."



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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #4 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:31pm
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There are two ways to deal with women and neither of them work.

  
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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #5 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 3:11am
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Uncle Ichabod wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:31pm:
There are two ways to deal with women and neither of them work.



Ha!  That had me laughing out loud.

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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #6 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 6:23am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:16pm:
Since male piglike behavior is in the news nonstop these days, it's worth taking a look at it objectively rather than simply castigating men for pigs. 

That's easy.  I've been doing it all my life.  I think men are pigs.  I think that's objectively undeniable.  If you disagree I simply have to ask ... have you ever hung out with men?  Have you ever met one? 

But let's not pretend this is completely one sided. 

I don't hit on women.  I never have.  I've always been kind of an odd duck.  The way my friends started to behave when we became teenagers was always a little disturbing. 

I consider Trump's behavior towards women disturbing.  I consider Clinton's behavior towards women disturbing.  I considered the goofy guy who delivered cheese to a store I worked at's behavior towards one of my coworkers disturbing.  I considered the way the frozen pizza delivery driver talked about wanting to "bend" my boss "over a table and just go to town" disturbing. 

I considered the way people for a delivery service I worked for talked about the women who would sign for packages at dropoff points on our routes incredibly disturbing.

So much so in fact that I sat down and talked with my wife about it for awhile one night. 

And she said something that I've been thinking about for the five years since.  She said "Oh honey.  Do you have ANY idea how women talk about the delivery driver after he's dropped off his package? Do you know how many times I've heard women talk about how this or that delivery driver can deliver a package to her any ole time he wants and on and on?  I think women are FAR more lewd when they're alone with each other than anything you're describing to me right now."

Hmm.  I've been puzzling over it for quite awhile now.

When the Twilight series came out my teenage daughter read them.  Wanting to know what the big f'ing deal was, I read them as well.  And found them absolutely repulsive even if we ignore the heavy creepy sexual stalker vibe and concentrate on the shitty writing alone.  Yet they were top sellers, and even women in my literature classes in college thought they were the best novels they've ever read.  I tried very hard not to be disdainful in conversations, but found I couldn't stop myself.

The lesson learned?  It's okay for men to stalk women whose names they don't even know, and creep into their bedrooms at night and watch them while they sleep ... so long as they're good looking. 

WTF? 

I had many, many conversations about this with my daughter.

When I was a kid and bored shitless back in the pre Internet days when I was out of reading material I even read some of my older sister's Harlequin romance novels.  Jesus.

And then "50 Shades of Grey" comes along. 

I started to reach an inevitable conclusion.  As an awkward, probably somewhere on the spectrum teenager with absolutely zero game (both my first wife and my current wife became my girlfriends at THEIR initiation with my current wife later telling me she was amused at how I ignored all of her "signals" for months ahead of time while we were "just friends") it never occurred to me what a two way street the sex game was between men and women.

But it truly is inescapable if you step back and look at it.

Maybe the sexually aggressive hard sell men engage in wouldn't be so prevalent if it didn't work 80% of the time.  I mean ... if you're batting .800 ...that's a hell of a lot of incentive to keep trying the approach.

Maybe women need to own up to "Harlequin Romance/Twilight/50 Shades of Grey" culture on THEIR side of the ledger a bit if they truly want change?

There's a fine line between welcome and unwelcome sexual advances.  And they pretty much boil down to "This hot guy hit on me in a bar last night so I took him home." and "This guy with beer on his breath drunk as hell and crappity smacking annoying kept hitting on me in a bar last night so I called the police."

Reading the tea leaves I'm gonna bet that's gonna be part of a national conversation pretty soon. 

Queshank



https://youtu.be/bIWrGPuUELo


From Tootsie, about 1:40 in to the clip.

Hoffman has, in drag, talked about men with the woman. She said how refreshing it would be to have a man just say honestly what he felt.

In his real persona, he does just that.


Good clip.

With all that's happening now post Wienstein (including a suicide by a male politician here) these things are getting perhaps overdue attention.


I agree with your general point but, and it's a big but, the distinction between actual boorish-abusive behaviour in the presence of or directly towards a person is different from, to coin a phrase, locker room talk.


I don't think the latter is unconnected to the former, but a precursor is not the finished article.

Like with guns. Not everyone who enjoys shooting is going to murder a dozen shoppers or schoolkids.


So, anyway, women talking lasciviously in private is one thing.

Men actively making women uncomfortable or touching them without permission (and I don't mean some crass formal system, normal human decency and understanding I mean) is unacceptable behaviour.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2017 at 6:32am by Limey »  

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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #7 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 10:05am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 2:22pm:
Feminism took a very wrong turn at some point with the Madonna, Britney Spears stuff winning out in my opinion.  Some women.  Note I said some.  Some women seem to do far more objectifying of women than some men.

Dave Chappelle had a bit about it in one of his standup bits that I've been mulling over since i first saw it years ago.

"You might not be a whore ... but you're wearing a whore's uniform.  That shit is CONFUSING to a man in a bar."



Queshank

But even a whore has a right to say that you can't force yourself on me.  If she is a whore at least ask for it.  No One wears a rape me uniform.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2017 at 10:47am by Wadsworth »  

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Queshank
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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #8 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 10:45am
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Limey wrote on Nov 15th, 2017 at 6:23am:
https://youtu.be/bIWrGPuUELo


From Tootsie, about 1:40 in to the clip.

Hoffman has, in drag, talked about men with the woman. She said how refreshing it would be to have a man just say honestly what he felt.

In his real persona, he does just that.


Good clip.


That is a great clip.  I haven't seen Tootsie in forever.  I might have to rewatch it.

But then again, Dustin Hoffman is one of those who has been accused of this behavior.  So maybe I'm not supposed to watch his movies anymore? Wink

Quote:
With all that's happening now post Wienstein (including a suicide by a male politician here) these things are getting perhaps overdue attention.


I agree with your general point but, and it's a big but, the distinction between actual boorish-abusive behaviour in the presence of or directly towards a person is different from, to coin a phrase, locker room talk.


I don't think the latter is unconnected to the former, but a precursor is not the finished article.

Like with guns. Not everyone who enjoys shooting is going to murder a dozen shoppers or schoolkids.


So, anyway, women talking lasciviously in private is one thing.

Men actively making women uncomfortable or touching them without permission (and I don't mean some crass formal system, normal human decency and understanding I mean) is unacceptable behaviour.


Absolutely.  No disagreement at all.  And in no way do I mean to conflate the two.  Nor am I defending Harvey Weinstein or Bill Clinton or Donald Trump or even George Takei here.

I'm simply pointing out that I have personally watched that type of boorish behavior work time and time again.  That is strong incentive for the boorish behavior to continue.  And if we aren't going to discuss the problems on both sides of this equation ... we're not going to get anywhere. 

In fact, if we can't have honest and open discussions about the male/female dynamic, it's my personal belief we will wind up in backlash territory and this potentially culture changing moment will be squandered.  I think we're already on the precipice of that happening judging by the comments I've heard some men and a surprising number of women already making about this.

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Queshank
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Re: Let's talk about sex, babeee, let's talk about you and me.
Reply #9 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 10:46am
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Wadsworth wrote on Nov 15th, 2017 at 10:05am:
But even a whore has a right to say that you can't force yourself on me.  If she is a whore at least ask for it.  No One wears a rape uniform.


Oh absolutely.  And even Chappelle as he's making his point stresses that.

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Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
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