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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus (Read 445 times)
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Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Dec 25th, 2017 at 7:34pm
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Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .

6. N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale, 1969), 19, cited in Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Missouri: College Press Publishing Company, 1996), 189-190.

As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” the relevant portion declares:

    About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.

Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, “Jesus Outside the New Testament”, 212.

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

    On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.”

The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, 281, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born around AD 38. He served Roman commander Vespasian in Jerusalem until the city's destruction in AD 70. Josephus personally believed Vespasian to be Israel's promised Messiah. When Vespasian later became emperor of Rome, Josephus served under him as court historian. 2 In AD 93, Josephus finished his work Antiquities of the Jews in which at least three passages specifically confirm portions of Scripture:

    But to some of the Jews the destruction of Herod's army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practice justice towards their fellows and piety towards God, and so doing to join in baptism. 3

    ...convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned. 4

    At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;...

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm
  


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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #1 - Dec 26th, 2017 at 10:54am
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Judeo/Christianity is the only religion based on real facts and history.  Historians and archeologists once mocked the truth concerning the existence of many places and peoples in the Bible. New discoveries keeps verifying the truth of scripture.
  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #2 - Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:14pm
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fair-minded know it all wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 10:54am:
Judeo/Christianity is the only religion based on real facts and history.  Historians and archeologists once mocked the truth concerning the existence of many places and peoples in the Bible. New discoveries keeps verifying the truth of scripture.


I'm not sure it's the case that there's ever been a serious movement to deny the existence of the major Biblical characters, certainly not Jesus Himself.

Obviously the supernatural elements are open to, shall we say, robust challenge.


It's not true that Jusdaeo - Christianity is the only religion based on fact, either.
That chap Mohammed pretty certainly existed. At least some of the events in their book are the same as in the Bible, and some of those which aren't are historically verifiable.
  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #3 - Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:22am
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Limey. wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:14pm:
I'm not sure it's the case that there's ever been a serious movement to deny the existence of the major Biblical characters, certainly not Jesus Himself.

Obviously the supernatural elements are open to, shall we say, robust challenge.


It's not true that Jusdaeo - Christianity is the only religion based on fact, either.
That chap Mohammed pretty certainly existed. At least some of the events in their book are the same as in the Bible, and some of those which aren't are historically verifiable.


Recent National Geographic magazine has a really good article about the historical Jesus.  It says no serious scholars, even atheist ones, doubt the existence of Jesus or his historical crucifixion.  But, as you say, the supernatural parts are a bit more problematic to them.  And other reasonable people as well.
  

non sumus stulti
but
accidit stercore
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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #4 - Dec 29th, 2017 at 7:22am
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EF wrote on Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:22am:
Recent National Geographic magazine has a really good article about the historical Jesus.  It says no serious scholars, even atheist ones, doubt the existence of Jesus or his historical crucifixion.  But, as you say, the supernatural parts are a bit more problematic to them.  And other reasonable people as well.


Or so called reasonable people. 

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

  


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Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #5 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 11:10am
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Limey. wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:14pm:
I'm not sure it's the case that there's ever been a serious movement to deny the existence of the major Biblical characters, certainly not Jesus Himself.


There have been challenges to all in the past at some points.  Many questioned the existence of a real Moses, King David and others for example.  Many liberal theologians doubted the existence of a real Jesus. I remember for example years ago when Time magazine had an article on the "historical Jesus" as many seem to do at Easter.  On the next issue a rabid Liberal theologian railed against the article insisting that the Jesus character was based on mythology.
But I was dealing more with archeology. The existence of ancient cities mentioned in the bible was deemed mythology until modern archeology kept proving the Bible right. One archeologist (an unbeliever) on A and E channel said the bible is his main tool in re-discovering some of these cities because it is often the only ancient reference, and by far the most accurate.

Limey. wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:14pm:
It's not true that Jusdaeo - Christianity is the only religion based on fact, either.
That chap Mohammed pretty certainly existed. At least some of the events in their book are the same as in the Bible, and some of those which aren't are historically verifiable.


I'm not denying the existence of those that began other religions. The Koran proves that it's writer had limited knowledge of both history and even contemporary religions. He clearly did not understand what the Christians believed and mixed much Pagan Arabic costums into his innovated religion.

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« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2018 at 2:25am by fair-minded know it all »  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #6 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 8:55pm
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fair-minded know it all wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 11:10am:
There have been challenges to all in the past at some points.  Many questioned the existence of a real Moses, King David and others for example.  Many liberal theologians doubted the existence of a real Jesus. I remember for example years ago when Time magazine had an article on the "historical Jesus" as many seem to do at Easter.  On the next issue a rabid Liberal theologian railed against the article insisting that the Jesus character was based on mythology.
But I was dealing more with archeology. The existence of ancient cities mentioned in the bible was deemed mythology until modern archeology kept proving the Bible right. One archeologist (an unbeliever) on A and E channel said the bible is his main tool in re-discovering some of these cities because it is often the only ancient reference, and by far the most accurate.



Surely nobody significant, and no significant numbers (or maybe only significant numbers of insignificant people  Grin) have held silly positions on this?

I mean, lots of places mentioned in the Bible are still there! I have s small wooden Cross I bought in Bethlehem! Friends of mine have been fighting not too far from Damascus!


Quote:
I'm not denying the existence of those that began other religions. The Koran proves that it's writer had limited knowledge of both history and even contemporary religions. He clearly did not understand what the Christians believed and mixed much Pagan Arabic costumes into his innovated religion.



That doesn’t sit too well with your earlier statement.
  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #7 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 12:05pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 8:55pm:
That doesn’t sit too well with your earlier statement.


How so?

  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #8 - Jan 27th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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If Jesus was not resurrected what became of his body?
  

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Re: Historical Evidence Outside of Scripture Regarding Jesus
Reply #9 - Jan 27th, 2018 at 9:53pm
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Hope this is not a double post. After Jesus"s resurrection what became of his body? In other words who had it?
  

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