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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech (Read 1,226 times)
Harry
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #130 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:05pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
With people like you in my corner, the world is my oyster, Harry.

But I do appreciate the kinds words. I hope to be a good father.


A good father provides. A good father doesn't spend the time he needs to provide for his family arguing a stupid point on the internet.

Accept that I will disagree with you when I see the need to do so. We disagree, and that is what this forum is for. I've disagreed with everyone here at times. I hope, for their sakes, that they don't take my disagreement with them as personally as you seem to take my disagreement with you.

Go get a job. Being right on the internet isn't important.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #131 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:07pm
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Harry wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
A good father provides. A good father doesn't spend the time he needs to provide for his family arguing a stupid point on the internet.

Accept that I will disagree with you when I see the need to do so. We disagree, and that is what this forum is for. I've disagreed with everyone here at times. I hope, for their sakes, that they don't take my disagreement with them as personally as you seem to take my disagreement with you.

Go get a job. Being right on the internet isn't important.

My irony meter has redlined.

You are falling all over yourself trying to diminish my ability to provide for my family, yet I am the one who is taking disagreement personally.

lol

Physician, heal thyself!
  

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EF
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #132 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 11:51am:
Yes, everyone in theory benefits from national defense.

But in practice, its tax funded nature creates opportunities for corporate welfare forms of "defense" which are actually not defense at all, and end up putting us all in more danger than we should be otherwise.

The same thing is true of education. In theory, we all benefit from an educated populace. But in practice that product is inferior in many ways. Education in the US is failing behind. And that is probably owing to many factors.

Libertarians would support experimenting with private education right now. The idea that we could privatize defense is probably 200 years or more away.

Perhaps it is true that these services needed to be tax funded. I am not sold on that but I am not going to pretend it is a crazy view. I also don't think we can exclude the view that these things were tax funded for private personal reasons, no less. I'm sure its a mix of both.

But even if that were true that we needed to provide these things using taxes, it does not have to be true going forward.

There are many things that we do privately that offer an external benefit. Its external costs that are a bigger problem.

This idea that there are certain goods that can only be provided by the government is something I fundamentally reject. The government is just a middleman. We can cut him out and let markets, competition and entrepreneurship handle these things.

And I submit when and if we do, we will see an increase in our living standards.

You might say we have a completely different take on this.


Yup to the second highlight.

The first highlight - I am not saying ONLY government can do those things, but that societies that organize themselves into "governing entities" that assess taxes to provide those things are ALWAYS going to be better off than those that don't do that.  That's why they did it in the first place.
  

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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #133 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:07pm:
My irony meter has redlined.

You are falling all over yourself trying to diminish my ability to provide for my family, yet I am the one who is taking disagreement personally.

lol

Physician, heal thyself!


Tl, you stalk me from thread to thread desperately trying to prove the unprovable. Fiddler called Wally a Limbaugh shill and later denied doing so. He lied. The words are there. I'm fine with you disagreeing with me that he lied. Why would any sane person carry that to the level you've carried it to?

You're obsessed with proving me wrong, and ironically damaging my reputation given our disagreement over what Trump said about libel laws is what started this.

You can have your opinion, and as I've said several times over the last few days while you childishly pushed this, I don't care.



  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #134 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:18pm
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EF wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
Yup to the second highlight.

The first highlight - I am not saying ONLY government can do those things, but that societies that organize themselves into "governing entities" that assess taxes to provide those things are ALWAYS going to be better off than those that don't do that.  That's why they did it in the first place.

Yeah, I got that.

The problem is - how do you know? From where did this knowledge come from?

For you a positing a universal law of economics here. The law you are suggesting says that certain functions will always be better provided through some kind of tax funded government plan.

That's the exact opposite of the market fundamentalists who say that these things will always be better provided by the market.

But in reality, how can we say?

It might be the case that the same service is better provided by the state in some contexts and the market in others.

Wouldn't that be the more reasonable position to take?
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #135 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm
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Harry wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
Tl, you stalk me from thread to thread desperately trying to prove the unprovable


Another peg on my irony meter for you do this exact thing to me, constantly.

You want to put me down so badly you can taste it. I can feel the resentment coming through the screen.

Quote:
Fiddler called Wally a Limbaugh shill and later denied doing so.


Nah, he never denied calling Wally a Limbaugh shill. That was his whole point.

He'll do it again if you give him half a chance.

Quote:
You're obsessed with proving me wrong, and ironically damaging my reputation given our disagreement over what Trump said about libel laws is what started this.


Our problem goes back years and has nothing to do with the thread on libel laws.

As for your reputation here- I don't need to comment on that. There is nothing I could do to it that you have not already done yourself.

Quote:
You can have your opinion, and as I've said several times over the last few days while you childishly pushed this, I don't care.

Thanks for letting me have my opinion!
  

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EF
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #136 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
Yeah, I got that.

The problem is - how do you know? From where did this knowledge come from?

For you a positing a universal law of economics here. The law you are suggesting says that certain functions will always be better provided through some kind of tax funded government plan.

That's the exact opposite of the market fundamentalists who say that these things will always be better provided by the market.

But in reality, how can we say?

It might be the case that the same service is better provided by the state in some contexts and the market in others.

Wouldn't that be the more reasonable position to take?


I would say that's what happened.  Society was sitting there waiting on the "market" to pave roads and provide education to the masses and it wasn't happening.   Had it been, there would have been no need to tax EVERYBODY for infrastructure and things that benefit EVERYBODY.  It would have already happened.

Now, I am not saying there are some things government does that maybe it should butt out of.  But paving roads, public education, and national defense are three things I think we're better off doing like we're doing now.  I think history shows that waiting on the "market" to do those things is an invitation for dirt roads, a largely illiterate population, and poor national defense.  Because that's the way it was PRIOR to governments assessing taxes for those things.
  

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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #137 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:26pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
Another peg on my irony meter for you do this exact thing to me, constantly.




Can you show one, just one, example of me doing so?
  

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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #138 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm
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Harry wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Can you show one, just one, example of me doing so?


I'm taking a break to fix myself some lunch, so no hurry.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech
Reply #139 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:47pm
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EF wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
I would say that's what happened.  Society was sitting there waiting on the "market" to pave roads and provide education to the masses and it wasn't happening.   Had it been, there would have been no need to tax EVERYBODY for infrastructure and things that benefit EVERYBODY.  It would have already happened.

Now, I am not saying there are some things government does that maybe it should butt out of.  But paving roads, public education, and national defense are three things I think we're better off doing like we're doing now.  I think history shows that waiting on the "market" to do those things is an invitation for dirt roads, a largely illiterate population, and poor national defense.  Because that's the way it was PRIOR to governments assessing taxes for those things.

And perhaps that's exactly what happened. I would argue its partly true.

Where I disagree though is on the idea that the infrastructure that was created by government was necessarily in the public interest. Much of it was done in the private interest. Look at how the railroads were handled, for example. And then there are the issues with the interstate highway system.

So there are positives and negatives.

I would go with you and suggest that these investments were probably an improvement on the status quo. I don't know that for sure but I am willing to admit its probably true.

That doesn't imply that it will always be true, though.

It could be that a young society needs the state to plan what the market has not addressed. But as those institutions evolve and develop a different arrangement becomes possible.

Part of that story is linked to the fact that a more developed society tends to have a middle class where as a developing society does not. Without a shared prosperity you won't have widespread demand for things like private education. If you want to educate everyone in that kind of situation, you would need wealth redistribution.

But in a world where there is shared prosperity, perhaps markets would do a better job. Perhaps entrepreneurship leads to a better product or service.
  

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