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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to (Read 873 times)
Frenchconnection
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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #10 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 2:38pm
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MJ wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 11:57am:
Rural, small-town America has a problem: their way of life is vanishing. Small family farmers have been eaten up by Beck, CPS and the like. The Five-and-Dimes are gone to make room for Walmart, and the local steel mill was taken over by Yale MBAs and relocated to China for lower labor costs.

The local response often involves cutting school funding, ensuring that God teachers don't want to teach there, and depriving students from the opportunity to get a strong educational foundation useful for making it in a changing world. And with no educated people, why would any other industry want to move in?

The Democratic response to this has been "uh..." while the Republicans have responded with blaming women for trying to start careers of their own, Mexicans for taking the auto supplier manufacturer job that pays 10% of what misunderstood-Trump-voter used to make (as if that's their fault) and non-Christians for objecting to being forced to read Ken Ham's and David Barton's crap in textbooks after being mandated to participate in school prayer. Democrats need a plan, yes, but let's not pretend that anyone else is offering workable solutions.

Queshank, I've met the Rep. Terry Goodin that's interviewed here. Good guy, but he's not one the entire party should look to as a way forward. You mention women's issues -- well, the right to make their own reproductive choices is a pretty core one, and Goodin is opposed to it, as one example. Sure, it plays well in rural Indiana where his family name goes a long way. That folksy charm doesn't represent Indianapolis, only an hour away but a world apart, with a much more diverse and educated population. So his trucker friend who just doesn't like Muslims might not feel so welcomed, because he won't be. 

I roll my eyes every time someone mentions the map of the country, showing how much red is the and his little blue there is. What this ignores is that the red is a lot of area where almost nobody lives, and the small blue pockets largely equal or surpass the people in the red area. That's not to say that the red areas are irrelevant, but can we atleast accept that those east and west coasts aren't some small pocket? -- there's a lot of people there, without fawning Politico features about how misunderstood they are.

Between Politico, WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc, there's a full-length featured story literally every week about rural white Trump voter who voted his own job and pay away because he doesn't like "other" people and longs for the past, but swears he's a good person who we should listen to. Enough already. 


Aren't the Dems you're mentioning here the same that voted for Obama... twice?  What happened?  It's like what Bill Burr joked on Conan about.  There wasn't a sudden rush of racist bigots that raced out of the hills screaming that the black guy was okay, but the white woman is just too far.
  

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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #11 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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I miss good old Zell Miller.  He'd straighten this out for you, by Jesus!  Wink
  

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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #12 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 7:57pm
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MJ wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 11:57am:
The Democratic response to this has been "uh..." while the Republicans have responded with blaming women for trying to start careers of their own, Mexicans for taking the auto supplier manufacturer job that pays 10% of what misunderstood-Trump-voter used to make (as if that's their fault) and non-Christians for objecting to being forced to read Ken Ham's and David Barton's crap in textbooks after being mandated to participate in school prayer. Democrats need a plan, yes, but let's not pretend that anyone else is offering workable solutions.


I think this needs more attention.  And I think Queshank ought to apply his analysis to it.

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Between Politico, WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc, there's a full-length featured story literally every week about rural white Trump voter who voted his own job and pay away because he doesn't like "other" people and longs for the past, but swears he's a good person who we should listen to. Enough already. 


Same with this.

It attempts -- just like those WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc. features do -- to paint all of these voters as racist, sexist, bigots that hate people enough to vote against their economic interests.

And if this is what democrats think the problem is, then they better not expect to win in 2020 (or 2018).

Calling these folks racist, sexist bigots will not win them over.  People don't like to be called that.

And how does this analysis square with the huge numbers of people (often in rural counties) that voted for Obama and Trump?  Look at the county level data.  Huge swings from 2012 to 2016.  How many counties can you find where Obama won more than 60% in 2012 and Trump won more than 60% in 2016?  I haven't counted, but I bet there are a lot of them.  And I bet, also, that they are all counties that are rural counties (or at least the counties that Karl Rove would refer to as "exurbs"). 

These are the people you are talking about.  People that swung heavily from Obama to Trump.  If they are racist, sexist simpletons as they are painted, why would they have ever voted for Obama?

They don't hate women or women working (sure, in any large population you will find a small number of bad eggs).  They hate politicians telling them they are sexist simply because they oppose government telling them how they should contract with employees.  They don't hate Mexicans.  They hate elitist politicians telling them they are racist because they disagree on the importance and capability of border security and because they disagree on the impact of heavy immigration and political negotiations on wages and work.

Obama won because he obviously avoided treating people this way (there was one heavily publicized incident -- accusing people of bitterly clinging to guns and religion -- but I can't remember a single other incident of him doing it).  A major factor in Clinton's loss was her comment about people being in a "basket of deplorables".  She didn't do as good of a job as Obama of avoiding being seen as thinking rust belt, bible belt, blue collar, rural folks are various types of "-ists" that beneath her and and her attention.
  
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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #13 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:11pm
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I think it does not matter if Dems or repubs win or lose. They ought to represent their constituent base.  Don't try to be something you aren't...if the majority of Americans want to support a candidate's true views within the scope of the electoral system, then that candidate will win. Don't just try to win and adopt identity politics, but try to persuade others to support your point of view.
  
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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #14 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 1:57am
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Queshank wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
The point to this is the Democrats have lost the Midwest.


For a cycle, overall. But it's in process, yes. And they're gaining the Southwest. Lose West Virginia, gain New Mexico. See Michigan and Wisconsin waver, and gain Colorado and Nevada, with Arizona on the horizon.

You would be correct in noting that the 16 of Michigan outweighs the 6 of Nevada, but the point is that the regions have a history of changing loyalties over time.

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They still hold the coasts.  But ... they always did.


Did they? New England (outside of New York and Massachusetts) and California didn't go consistently Democratic until 1992. Virginia held off until 2008.
  

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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #15 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 2:57am
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Queshank wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 9:58am:
Heartland Democrats to Washington: ‘You’re Killing Us’

A new report blames an elitist national party for alienating vast swaths of once reliable voters. If the party doesn’t win them back, it could spell disaster in 2020.

This is the reality of my existence here in South Dakota.  The Democrats seem determined to go all in on the issues that are important to people in California and New York.  That's not a winning strategy.  I think most of the Democratic leadership is aware of this and that's why they're banking so hard on Mueller being their flawed champion. That's a big gamble considering what's at stake.

A few quotes that are exactly what I've been saying to my leftist friends.

There are 737 counties in the Midwest—Trump won all but 63 of them. “We can’t keep bombing in the rural parts of these states,” Bustos told me. And with arguably some of the most critical midterms in American history less than 10 months away, the 2020 presidential election already looming and redistricting control on the line, Democrats need to find a fix fast, said Robin Johnson, a Bustos adviser and consultant who teaches political science at Monmouth College in Illinois, and conducted the interviews for the report last summer. “If we don’t get this right in the next two cycles,” he told me, “we’re done”—rendered mostly powerless in Congress and in Heartland state houses.

*****

From the Appalachian regions of Ohio to the Iron Range of Minnesota and the northern reaches of Michigan and Wisconsin, across Iowa and Missouri and through the southern swaths of Indiana and Illinois—areas in which Bill Clinton triumphed and Hillary Clinton tanked—the quotes from the 72 rural Democrats Johnson interviewed read like a pent-up primal scream. And Terry Goodin’s comments pop out in particular. In the report, he says the Democratic Party is “lazy,” “out of touch with mainstream America,” relying on “too much identity politics” where “winners and losers are picked by their labels.” The Democrats in his district, he laments, “feel abandoned.”

*****
“Do you ever find yourself, as a Democrat, wanting to push back?” I asked.

“You’re looking at a Democrat right there,” Goodin said. “He’s a Democrat who voted for Donald Trump.”

“He’s also,” I said, “a Democrat who didn’t want to train a Muslim in his truck because he was afraid of getting blown up.”

“But you know,” Goodin said, “you let people live their lives, and you don’t question—I mean, what good would it have done?” He went on: “There’s no reason for confrontation—that’s the trouble with Congress now—because Delmis Burns and I, you wash away some of the odd things, what some people may consider odd that he would have said, what he said about the Muslim guy—the reason he said that is there’s no Muslims around our area. So he just don’t trust ‘em. He don’t know who they are … But Delmis Burns and I probably agree on 90 percent of everything we’d ever talk about. So why would I focus on the 10 percent that I don’t agree with him on?”


The east and west coast are not going to save the Democrats.  And the Democrats are in a tough spot.  The east and west coast control all of the megaphones.  (Unless you're Donald Trump and figure out how to do an end run) 

It is not the Republican Party that is in trouble.  I've been maintaining this for awhile now.  It is the Democratic Party that is in trouble.  They are trapped between the peddlers of identity politics who will abandon them if they abandon identity politics and vote 3rd party, and what used to be their bread and butter voter base: Blue collar workers and farmers.  It used to be in my state that even tho they always voted Republican for president, they always had Democratic senators and Representatives.  The state house was always Democrat. I've watched that change before my eyes in my 47 years of living in SD Minnesota and a brief stint in Ohio.

Democrats need to get their shit together and stop focusing so much on this feel good do nothing shit ... like Russia.  Let Russia play out how it plays out and clean up your crappity smacking own houses people.

The argument needs to be made that women's issues are important for gays, transgenders AND women.  Human rights issues are important for Hispanics, blacks, Muslims, AND white people.  The burgeoning police state isn't just important for blacks, it's important for all the unarmed white and Hispanic citizens being shot too (and there's far more of them than there are blacks)

Just use a Venn diagram. 

It's not that complicated. 

51% of the people in this country are women.  You know how many lesbians are women?  All of them.  Who benefits from protecting women's issues?  Lesbians.  /gasp.  Shocking.  Are lesbians women first or lesbians first?  Which is more integral to their identity?  Are transgender women women first or transgenders first?  Which is more important to their identity (if you answer something other than "women" BZZZZZZT!  I think you missed the real point of transgender issues in your drive to fuel the Democratic tank with identity politics fumes instead of actual gas.)




Quote:
There are 737 counties in the Midwest—Trump won all but 63 of them


And what is any presidential election? Shocked
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #16 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 3:15am
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Queshank wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Is that why the Democrats have lost 1,000 seats nationwide?  Cuz they're fine and 2016 was an aberration?

The point to this is the Democrats have lost the Midwest.

They still hold the coasts.  But ... they always did.

What 2016 showed is what happens when the Democrats lose the Midwest.

Queshank


Quote:
Is that why the Democrats have lost 1,000 seats nationwide?


And it's time to just go the other way(Again)

Quote:
The point to this is the Democrats have lost the Midwest


Which is about normal right? Roll Eyes

You miss the fact that Trump barely beat Hillary it Penn, Wis and Mich. Even Florida to an agree
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
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a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #17 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 3:41am
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Queshank wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:07pm:
You're ignoring that the 700,000 people in South Dakota have 2 senators ... and the 39 million people in California have 2 senators as well...


Duly noted. Fair point.

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You seem to be suggesting we should throw all those Democrats to the wilderness in favor of party approved Democrats in New York.


Not at all. National Democrats have a responsibility to talk with their rural, conservative members and include them. They do not, however, have the sole responsibility for tailoring their platform to address the boogeymen that these rural voters choose to be scared of. 

I do believe, however, that Rep. Goodin, as a rural Democrat (and the last one in southern Indiana), has a responsibility to explain to his locals why he affiliates the way he does. If he's willing to be put forward as a leader, he needs to lead and explain what the party has to offer. See below.

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Your dismissal of the opinions of people all over the country is duly noted.  But misses so much.  Like how voting Democrat has been voting jobs and pay away as well.
 

The last part is not wrong. But let's not ignore somewhat recent party history. The party turned to the DLC types in an attempt to appeal to these same people in the 80s, in a move away from these very "identity politics."

This story presents local Democrats as wanting the party to support Main Street instead of Wall Street, and then they long for the days of Clinton-era focus on economics. Main Street and NAFTA. Are you kidding me?

The idea that Democrats have nothing at all to offer on pocket issues, and are tied up in demographic battles, is completely wrong. Has there been a single policy initiative so directed at the population as a whole as Obamacare, the biggest social welfare step taken since Medicare? Hillary had the most progressive platform since FDR. No doubt, still too corporate-friendly for my taste, but the idea that there's no focus on anything other than identity politics shows the power of the propaganda machine they face and the lack of a proper message to counter it.

Quote:
Like disregarding legitimate concerns about "illegal" immigration (held by legal immigrants more than most) to smear the the concerned about "others."  Is the Chinese immigrant in an article I shared yesterday's problem with "illegal" immigrants a fear of the others?  How about the Hispanic carpenter immigrant that had a problem with illegal immigration?  Does he just hate ... well ... Hispanics?


Here's the difference between Delmis Burns and your examples. Your Chinese immigrant has some experience with immigration. Your Hispanic immigrant has experience with Hispanics. Delmis Burns, by his own admission, knows nothing about Muslims, other than he doesn't like them because they supposedly blow him up. He has no experience with immigrants or immigration -- legal or otherwise -- other than the crap he is spoon-fed. So yes, I dismiss his concerns as unfounded and ridiculous.

Rep. Goodin asks why would be focus on the 10% he disagrees with Delmis Burns on, when I guarantee you that that 10% is why Delmis voted for Trump. But here's an example of that 90%, I imagine:

Rep. Goodin's hometown was ground zero for the large HIV outbreak that occurred in southern Indiana. The very one that family values crusader Mike Pence participated in by setting the stage to make it flourish, and then sit on his hands whIle doing nothing to stop it. The very one that was countered thanks to the Medicaid expansion that was part of the Obamacare legislation that people like Delmis Burns, no doubt, abhor as socialist enslavement.

So after Scott County was saved by a needle-exchange program and Obamacare's Medicaid expansion that allowed additional opportunities to get treated for opioid addiction, that county then voted 2-to-1 for the con man who vowed to destroy it. That's not a problem from lack of focus on economics. That's a local populace that believes anything that appeals to their tribal sense of fear.

The problem with the Heartland is not a lack of focus on issues that matter to Heartland Democrats on the part of coastal elites. The problem is that once the coastal Democrats help push something forward to help these Heartland people, what Democrats still exist there refuse to stand up for it, and instead cower in the corner at the onslaught on whatever the FOXbots heard on talk radio and Breitbart. There's a reason all the local conservative Democrats in southern Indiana were wiped out in 2010 after staying quiet about what being a Democrat means, while a vocal progressive like Sherrod Brown wins election just an hour east with regularity.

Now, that poses problems for the overall party, as it loses influence. But if we look, the coasts are doing just fine. California is like the world's 7th largest economy by itself. Maryland has one of the top education systems in the country. Washington and Massachusetts are hubs for tech and research. It's not San Fran or Boston liberals that are hurt by Heartland "working-class" (i.e. white) voters being so easily conned. They're killing themselves.


  

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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #18 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:30am
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Queshank wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Is that why the Democrats have lost 1,000 seats nationwide?  Cuz they're fine and 2016 was an aberration?

The point to this is the Democrats have lost the Midwest.

They still hold the coasts.  But ... they always did.

What 2016 showed is what happens when the Democrats lose the Midwest.

Queshank


Oh they lost their ass no doubt, last time.  Like I said the party chose to make a queen of the shittiest candidate ever.  That's definitely going to cause some problems.  I mean holy shit Trump won because of their mistakes and that also tingles down the line as many people vote straight party ticket.

You are making the same argument that people did when they underestimated the Reps after Obama won the first time.

If Trump handily won certain swing states I might agree, but he didn't.  He barely won.  You had two shitty candidates representing the major parties, and a shitty candidate won.

  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Re: This is what Democrats and leftists need to start paying attention to
Reply #19 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:47am
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
Meh, the GOP has played the golbalization card better.

That's it.

They're the better party at assigning blame. The Democrats lost the blue collar vote when we started outsourcing our factories. Instead of fighting the inevitable, the Dems jumped in bed with Wall Street and embraced "free trade". When both major parties are doing NOTHING to stop the outsourcing, what's a worker to do? The GOP is great at the blame game and that's pretty appealing to someone who's lost or may lose his job.

Those Mexicans took our jobs!

The GOP seems to dislike foreigners. The Dems seem to embrace them.

I'm switching to Republican!  Angry

How long before folks realize they've been had?




Over the last year, unemployment has gone down.  The same goes for outsourcing jobs overseas.  Both of those effect all of the population in each of our states, not just any race making up our population.  The economy is good.   Not bad for any President's first year in office.  Now we are seeing that continue in the first days of 2018.  Great start.
  
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