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patrick2
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Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:48pm
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Re the renewal of the FISA program.

Yes, we have the Fourth Amendment.  But as Justice Jackson once said in another context, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17:

When a country or it's people are threatened, or even the survival of the country is threatened, by war, or warlike actions such as that presented by islamofascism, effective resistance requires a tradeoff between the Fourth Amendment and security.  The amount of this tradeoff depends on the nature and degree of the threat.

Smiley  Thank you for your attention.
  
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A Wally in Winter
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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #1 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:56pm
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patrick2 wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Re the renewal of the FISA program.

Yes, we have the Fourth Amendment.  But as Justice Jackson once said in another context, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17:

When a country or it's people are threatened, or even the survival of the country is threatened, by war, or warlike actions such as that presented by islamofascism, effective resistance requires a tradeoff between the Fourth Amendment and security.  The amount of this tradeoff depends on the nature and degree of the threat.

Smiley  Thank you for your attention.

And yet, Benjamin Franklin once said....

"  Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "


Wouldn't it be nice if their were absolute truths in each and every political situation.   
  

" The few will always act like the few.

Machiavelli

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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #2 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:01pm
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patrick2 wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Re the renewal of the FISA program.

Yes, we have the Fourth Amendment.  But as Justice Jackson once said in another context, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17:

When a country or it's people are threatened, or even the survival of the country is threatened, by war, or warlike actions such as that presented by islamofascism, effective resistance requires a tradeoff between the Fourth Amendment and security.  The amount of this tradeoff depends on the nature and degree of the threat.

Smiley  Thank you for your attention.


I disagree.

The interpretation of laws shouldn't be determined by a supposed threat.

We have a procedure for amending the Constitution if it does not meet our current needs.
  



"For it is good to be children sometimes, and never better than at Christmas, when its mighty Founder was a child Himself."
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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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Maestro wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:01pm:
I disagree.

The interpretation of laws shouldn't be determined by a supposed threat.

We have a procedure for amending the Constitution if it does not meet our current needs.

Our nation's history goes back a very long way wrestling with the concerns of exigent circumstances.  We dealt with such issues, as colonialists under the King's common law as well as throughout our history, once we achieve independence.  Although, our most frequent uses to such exigent circumstances usually is in regards to the amendment protections against warrantless searches, certain other civil liberties, including habeus corpus, have been suspended during times of crisis.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/case_summary/2011/fourth_amendment_exigen...

  

" The few will always act like the few.

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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #4 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:35pm
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Maestro wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:01pm:
I disagree.

The interpretation of laws shouldn't be determined by a supposed threat.

We have a procedure for amending the Constitution if it does not meet our current needs.


In ALL the previous US wars, the interpretation was temporarily and suitably adjusted, since few people wanted to commit national suicide.
  
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Limey.
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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #5 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:40pm
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A Wally in Winter wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:11pm:
Our nation's history goes back a very long way wrestling with the concerns of exigent circumstances.  We dealt with such issues, as colonialists under the King's common law as well as throughout our history, once we achieve independence.  Although, our most frequent uses to such exigent circumstances usually is in regards to the amendment protections against warrantless searches, certain other civil liberties, including habeus corpus, have been suspended during times of crisis.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/case_summary/2011/fourth_amendment_exigen...




Lol.


There’s a newsagent in my town older than your country, and it’s not the oldest shop by 500 years.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #6 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:46pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
Lol.


There’s a newsagent in my town older than your country, and it’s not the oldest shop by 500 years.


Yeah?  Oh Yeah??  Well, Sumer preceded the creation of your country by thousands of years.
  
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A Wally in Winter
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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #7 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:49pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
Lol.


There’s a newsagent in my town older than your country, and it’s not the oldest shop by 500 years.

The foundation of our entire legal system is British common law.  Our Constitution was written by former English subjects who got to take a mulligan on what was missing from the signing of the Magna Carta and all the rights of man that Englishmen had been asserting since 1066.

Our nation's cases of "case law" dating back to the King's counties in our colonies.  Such proceedings were conducted with the same laws as all  Englishmen back in mother England. 
Except for the King, most of the legal principles remained as the common law of the United States.  It's like the Christian Religion without the Pope!  

I think if you scratched the surface you will found that our American experiment in freedom and liberty just took things a wee bit further than other Englishmen at the time dared to go.
  

" The few will always act like the few.

Machiavelli

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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #8 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:03pm
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patrick2 wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
In ALL the previous US wars, the interpretation was temporarily and suitably adjusted, since few people wanted to commit national suicide.


Ok, so can you be specific? In what ways has the 4th Amendment been temporarily re-interpreted due to wartime and why was it necessary?

  



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Re: Uncle Pat's Rules of the Universe - Number 17
Reply #9 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:10pm
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Maestro wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:03pm:
Ok, so can you be specific? In what ways has the 4th Amendment been temporarily re-interpreted due to wartime and why was it necessary?


https://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/41/3/intl-crime-terrorism/41-3_Sulmasy-...

This Article argues that the Katz test is not applicable to searches
conducted in support of armed conflict operations or for national security
matters. We argue the lower courts have struck the proper balance
between constitutional rights and national security by not requiring a
warrant for national security searches. This Article asserts the courts
have correctly distinguished between domestic law enforcement activities
and national security against foreign threats. This distinction is all the
more important as the nation fights an unprecedented threat against
international terrorism and the need for enhanced intelligence gathering is
greater than ever before. Katz should, however, remain a vital part of the
law enforcement system as a provision of judicial oversight over
surveillance activities to detect crime. But, as Justice Byron White
anticipated in the Katz case, the need for rapid decision-making and
intelligence gathering in national security matters are best left to the
Executive Branch.


..." Katz, however, did not address the important difference between
crime and war. While criminal enterprises may have consequences to
society, they generally do not implicate national security.  "

However... " Justice White relied upon the President to ensure compliance with
the reasonableness standard of the Fourth Amendment in cases
involving national security  "


Through the Act, Congress amended FISA to require only
that the government certify that a “significant purpose” of the search is
to collect foreign intelligence.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:20pm by A Wally in Winter »  

" The few will always act like the few.

Machiavelli

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