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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Abortion Murder? (Read 4,939 times)
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #40 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:03pm
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EF wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 4:23pm:
No, but I would like to make a difference rather than just make noise.

Good, so what is your plan?  My calling is witnessing to the lost.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #41 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:31pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:03pm:
Good, so what is your plan?  My calling is witnessing to the lost.


Recognizing that abortion without limits is not the answer, but that secular laws will NEVER treat abortion as murder without some exceptions (never has, never will).  One exception being rape.  (And I know allowing a female to abort a baby she conceived as a result of rape will not "unrape" her, but it WILL allow her to return her body, as much as possible, to its pre-rape status). Another being danger to the life of the mother to be.

And once you allow even one exception, murder is pretty much off the table as far as secular law is concerned.  And that's the environment in which we dwell on this side of the topsoil.  Constantly carping "abortion is murder" isn't going to win the lost or change any secular laws.  Never has,  never will.
  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #42 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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EF wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
Recognizing that abortion without limits is not the answer, but that secular laws will NEVER treat abortion as murder without some exceptions (never has, never will).  One exception being rape.  (And I know allowing a female to abort a baby she conceived as a result of rape will not "unrape" her, but it WILL allow her to return her body, as much as possible, to its pre-rape status). Another being danger to the life of the mother to be.

And once you allow even one exception, murder is pretty much off the table as far as secular law is concerned.  And that's the environment in which we dwell on this side of the topsoil.  Constantly carping "abortion is murder" isn't going to win the lost or change any secular laws.  Never has,  never will.


It has less to do with the notion of murder.. it isn't..as Christians routinely demonstrate their disregard for post-fetuses. If it were about compassion they'd care as much about children once they were born..

A deeper thought banging around in the mind of the overly religious is that abortion circumvents the punishment God prescribed for a woman who becomes pregnant..  Christians love them some punishment and HATE to see anyone skate..

  
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #43 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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Willys Wonka - Ex-Member wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
It has less to do with the notion of murder.. it isn't..as Christians routinely demonstrate their disregard for post-fetuses. If it were about compassion they'd care as much about children once they were born..

A deeper thought banging around in the mind of the overly religious is that abortion circumvents the punishment God prescribed for a woman who becomes pregnant..  Christians love them some punishment and HATE to see anyone skate..


Throwing this back at you, if you are an adult and can not afford to raise a child MAYBE birth control or abstinence should be considered, not murdering a child simply because you were too lazy to act like an adult.  Amazing the absolute idiocy of this argument.
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:15pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #44 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:03pm
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EF wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
Recognizing that abortion without limits is not the answer, but that secular laws will NEVER treat abortion as murder without some exceptions (never has, never will).  One exception being rape.  (And I know allowing a female to abort a baby she conceived as a result of rape will not "unrape" her, but it WILL allow her to return her body, as much as possible, to its pre-rape status). Another being danger to the life of the mother to be.

And once you allow even one exception, murder is pretty much off the table as far as secular law is concerned.  And that's the environment in which we dwell on this side of the topsoil.  Constantly carping "abortion is murder" isn't going to win the lost or change any secular laws.  Never has,  never will.

First off a sinner will rarely ever recognize that they are truly engulfed in the pleasures of sin, true?  God clearly states he will turn those over to their sin and often describes just how deep in sin they will go.  So yes, "harpin" about it is not going to change it so then what do you and I do in the mean time?  Well, do you attend a church that is ok with abortion?  If so that is definitely not a church in the will of God and I would highly suspect that there are other teachings that the church has compromised on that God will not ignore.

  Next, do you talk to "Christians" who are ok with abortions and never attempt to correct this fallacy?  If so you are doing them no favors, in fact, they may not even be a follower of Jesus, which should prompt you and I to witness to them about the gospel.  The Church has caved on many issues that God has clearly stated he abhors and warns us of the consequences of falling out of his favor.  SO there are things you and I can do  that advances his kingdom.  Staying in a church that follows the will of society rather then God's will is a no no.

One more remark, there have been 60 million children killed since Roe v Wade, very few have been for rape or the life of the mother.  93% have been for social issues not related to rape or threat of loss of life of the mother.  So now it is primarily used just for convenience.

I do not care what anyone has told you, God is NOT ok with sin, never has been and he never will be.  That is why Jesus spoke more about the wrath of God on sinners (hell) then anyone else in the Bible.
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:17pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #45 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 11:57am
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:52pm:
Throwing this back at you, if you are an adult and can not afford to raise a child MAYBE birth control or abstinence should be considered, not murdering a child simply because you were too lazy to act like an adult.  Amazing the absolute idiocy of this argument.


If we step back from your world of mythology for a moment..  Abstinence has never and will never be effective as human nature deems otherwise..  So..   Is it better to subsidize abortion or birth control?

Hint: Birth control is orders of magnitude less expensive and no one would argue with you about having fewer abortions.
  
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #46 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
First off a sinner will rarely ever recognize that they are truly engulfed in the pleasures of sin, true?  God clearly states he will turn those over to their sin and often describes just how deep in sin they will go.  So yes, "harpin" about it is not going to change it so then what do you and I do in the mean time?  Well, do you attend a church that is ok with abortion?  If so that is definitely not a church in the will of God and I would highly suspect that there are other teachings that the church has compromised on that God will not ignore.

  Next, do you talk to "Christians" who are ok with abortions and never attempt to correct this fallacy?  If so you are doing them no favors, in fact, they may not even be a follower of Jesus, which should prompt you and I to witness to them about the gospel.  The Church has caved on many issues that God has clearly stated he abhors and warns us of the consequences of falling out of his favor.  SO there are things you and I can do  that advances his kingdom.  Staying in a church that follows the will of society rather then God's will is a no no.

One more remark, there have been 60 million children killed since Roe v Wade, very few have been for rape or the life of the mother.  93% have been for social issues not related to rape or threat of loss of life of the mother.  So now it is primarily used just for convenience.

I do not care what anyone has told you, God is NOT ok with sin, never has been and he never will be.  That is why Jesus spoke more about the wrath of God on sinners (hell) then anyone else in the Bible.


You're erecting a straw man.  I never said God was okay with sin.  Dishonoring one's parents and having idols before God are also sins, but neither are crimes under secular law (nor do I believe they should be, nor did our founders; do you?).

The overwhelming majority of abortions have ALWAYS been for convenience.  And it matters not how few of them were for babies conceived from rape.  Do you not believe that a female carrying a baby conceived via rape should have the secular right to a safe, legal abortion?  Yes or no.  If yes, then ALL abortion is not even "murder" under  your definition.  If no, then you're the best friend "abortion on demand for any reason" people have because you're NEVER going to affect secular law on abortion. NEVER.

Finally, if your only point is that God considers abortion murder but you don't really care if secular law does or not, then we're done here.  But if DO want secular law to treat all abortion as murder, then I can only believe you would not be happy with a return to conditions pre Roe vs Wade.

Pre Roe vs Wade abortion was illegal, but it was a very low grade crime.  Seldom investigated absent a complaint, punished lightly if punished at all, and generally only the abortionist was punished.  Those who aided and abetted getting the abortion, including the female seeking it, were not punished at all (to my knowledge). 

So if you do want secular law to treat all abortion as murder (and I am not sure you do, frankly; most alleged "pro-lifers" don't; they just like waving the bloody shirt) - what punishments and on whom should they be assessed?  Under secular law, pre-meditated murder (and if all abortion is murder, it can be no other kind) is frequently punished by a death sentence or life imprisonment of the perp and sometimes on all who aid and abet before and after the fact.  Is that what you support? Yes or no.  If yes, again, you're the best friend pro-choicers have because you're NEVER going to make a change like that to secular law.  NEVER.

So my last question, do you want to make a difference or just continue making noise?
  

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accidit stercore
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #47 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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Willys Wonka - Ex-Member wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
It has less to do with the notion of murder.. it isn't..as Christians routinely demonstrate their disregard for post-fetuses. If it were about compassion they'd care as much about children once they were born..

A deeper thought banging around in the mind of the overly religious is that abortion circumvents the punishment God prescribed for a woman who becomes pregnant..  Christians love them some punishment and HATE to see anyone skate..



Reminded me of this:

Joan Chittister
Sister Joan D. Chittister, O.S.B. (born April 26, 1936) is a Benedictine nun, author and speaker.

I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.

interview with Bill Moyers, PBS, 2004,[1] quoted in Catholic nun exposes the hypocrisy of ‘pro-life’ Republicans in one simple quote, Deadstate, July 30, 2015.

  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #48 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:44pm
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EF wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:55pm:
You're erecting a straw man.  I never said God was okay with sin.  Dishonoring one's parents and having idols before God are also sins, but neither are crimes under secular law (nor do I believe they should be, nor did our founders; do you?).

The overwhelming majority of abortions have ALWAYS been for convenience.  And it matters not how few of them were for babies conceived from rape.  Do you not believe that a female carrying a baby conceived via rape should have the secular right to a safe, legal abortion?  Yes or no.  If yes, then ALL abortion is not even "murder" under  your definition.  If no, then you're the best friend "abortion on demand for any reason" people have because you're NEVER going to affect secular law on abortion. NEVER.

Finally, if your only point is that God considers abortion murder but you don't really care if secular law does or not, then we're done here.  But if DO want secular law to treat all abortion as murder, then I can only believe you would not be happy with a return to conditions pre Roe vs Wade.

Pre Roe vs Wade abortion was illegal, but it was a very low grade crime.  Seldom investigated absent a complaint, punished lightly if punished at all, and generally only the abortionist was punished.  Those who aided and abetted getting the abortion, including the female seeking it, were not punished at all (to my knowledge). 

So if you do want secular law to treat all abortion as murder (and I am not sure you do, frankly; most alleged "pro-lifers" don't; they just like waving the bloody shirt) - what punishments and on whom should they be assessed?  Under secular law, pre-meditated murder (and if all abortion is murder, it can be no other kind) is frequently punished by a death sentence or life imprisonment of the perp and sometimes on all who aid and abet before and after the fact.  Is that what you support? Yes or no.  If yes, again, you're the best friend pro-choicers have because you're NEVER going to make a change like that to secular law.  NEVER.

So my last question, do you want to make a difference or just continue making noise?

I answered your question.  Do you attend a church that is ok with it?  You and I should focus on how we can present the gospel to a secular world engulf in the worship of self.  My concern is how are WE dealing with this issue as a church, not as a secular society.  If the church concedes this then what else will they concede to secularism, our religious freedoms?  My goal is to live according to God's word, not according to the secular desires.  Abortion is a sin, is it not?

  Answer that question for me because the 6th Commandment is very clear.  You also know that this will not go unpunished by God.  Should we punish those who have abortions or commit abortions?  Yes we should merit punishment for taking the most innocent of life God has given us.  I mean it should shock you we have supassed Nazi Germany's killing of the jews with 60 million children murdered out of pure selfish reasons.

  You can argue the "exceptions" but we will still be in the tens of millions of lives taken simply because we are inconvienenced.  That to me is stunningly shocking and should be to you too.  I am simply surprised of your postition as one who proclaims himself to be a follower of Christ.  What should you and I do according to the teachings of the Bible, turn a blind eye to this?  Israel did and God punished them, his own chosen people.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:16pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #49 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:26pm
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EF wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:59pm:
Reminded me of this:

Joan Chittister
Sister Joan D. Chittister, O.S.B. (born April 26, 1936) is a Benedictine nun, author and speaker.

I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.

interview with Bill Moyers, PBS, 2004,[1] quoted in Catholic nun exposes the hypocrisy of ‘pro-life’ Republicans in one simple quote, Deadstate, July 30, 2015.


Then I am reminded of this, from the prophet Jerimiah as well as other verses.

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations

Galatians 1:15 ESV

But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

Psalm 139:13 ESV

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.

Psalm 139:16 ESV

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.


Isaiah 49:1 ESV

Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name.


Psalm 22:10 ESV

On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God



I consider the word of God to carry more weight then a Catholic nun. besides, this is not about politics.  I would challenge you to watch the videos of a child inside the womb.  A baby feels pain after 8 weeks, that has been documented and is not even argued.


  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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