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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Abortion Murder? (Read 2,657 times)
Fiddler
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #50 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:26pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:26pm:
Then I am reminded of this, from the prophet Jerimiah as well as other verses.

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations
Galatians 1:15 ESV
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Psalm 139:13 ESV
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
Psalm 139:16 ESV
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Isaiah 49:1 ESV
Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name.
Psalm 22:10 ESV
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God



Most of those passages deal with the notion of a soul.. not a fetus..  It's clear that "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;" is not about a fetus as it says "Before I formed you in the womb"..

There is nothing specifically anti-abortion in the bible.  In fact the bible in goat-herder fashion lays out the procedure for initiating an abortion.


Numbers 5:11-31
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

11 Then the Lord said to Moses,

12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him

13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act),

14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure—

15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord.

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.




Doesn't that strike you a bit as the Drowning Test for Witches where you tie rocks to the suspected witch then throw them into the water.. If they drown, they're innocent..




Plus the idea that Christians believe that a fertilized egg is imminently granted personhood simply doesn't hold up..  Miscarriages are not named as a baby would be nor is a funeral held for a miscarriage. 

With that inconsistency in mind it becomes clear that you believe that a fertilized egg is a person more for political reasons that religious ones because we know above all else..religion is about controlling others..

« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2018 at 3:52pm by Fiddler »  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #51 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:35pm
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Some propose that Numbers 5:11-31 refers to God causing an abortion. The 2011 edition of the NIV mistakenly states that the drink will cause miscarriage in Numbers 5:21-22, 27. However, this is not what the passage is talking about. Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in the text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage. While drinking a poisonous mixture of ingredients could very well cause a miscarriage, that is not what this text is speaking of.

If a wife was found guilty, the punishment was death (Leviticus 20:10). If the wife was found innocent, she would be “cleared of guilt” and “able to have children” (Numbers 11:28). So, again, Numbers 5:11-31 does not refer to abortion in any sense. Rather, it is describing a method that God allowed to be used to determine if a wife had committed adultery against her husband.

KJV 22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

AMP 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen (so let it be).”

Tree of Life21 Then the kohen is to have the woman swear under this oath of a curse, and say to the woman—‘then let Adonai cause you to be cursed and denounced among your people when Adonai causes your thigh to rot and your belly to swell. 22 “May this water which brings a curse enter your body and cause your belly to swell and your thigh to rot.’

“The woman is to say, ‘Amen, amen!’
WHY THE TLV?

    The developers and translators of the Tree of Life Bible version  believe  that  current English-speaking Bible readers need  a rendering that  speaks  with  a more  decidedly Jewish-friendly voice – a Bible with  a voice like the Bible authors themselves.
    Translations of the Hebrew, Aramaic  and Greek Bible manuscripts have  all-too-often been rendered by churchmen with  little-to-no intellectual interest in the Jewish  experience, no emotional connection to the Jewish  people,  and no real support for the Jewish  homeland, Israel.
    The result  of the disregard be it intentional or accidental, is that  biblical  books that  were written to Jews, for Jews and about  Jews lose a critical  element—their actual  Jewish  essence.
    Translations lost sight of the Jewish  roots of Jesus’ story.

No other version says this will result in an abortion or that a child is aborted.


« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:47pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #52 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:54am
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:35pm:
No other version says this will result in an abortion or that a child is aborted.



LMAO.. You're kidding.  You're gonna hide behind "versions" of the bible? .. 

Seawolf.. THIS^ is why you have no credibility.

  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #53 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:44am
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Fiddler wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:54am:
LMAO.. You're kidding.  You're gonna hide behind "versions" of the bible? .. 

Seawolf.. THIS^ is why you have no credibility.


This is why you really are in over your head on these subject.  Obviously you chose the weakest translation to try and further your agenda.  The NIV translation of 2011 is the ONLY translation that made that version in their Bible translation.  Do the research.  The punishment for the adulterous affair was not an abortion, but the death of the adulterer.  The real issue you have with God is his impending judgement of all of mankind on the day of judgement.  That goes to the core of why you refuse to believe, in my opinion.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #54 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:11am
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:44pm:
I answered your question.  Do you attend a church that is ok with it?  You and I should focus on how we can present the gospel to a secular world engulf in the worship of self.  My concern is how are WE dealing with this issue as a church, not as a secular society.  If the church concedes this then what else will they concede to secularism, our religious freedoms?  My goal is to live according to God's word, not according to the secular desires.  Abortion is a sin, is it not?

  Answer that question for me because the 6th Commandment is very clear.  You also know that this will not go unpunished by God.  Should we punish those who have abortions or commit abortions?  Yes we should merit punishment for taking the most innocent of life God has given us.  I mean it should shock you we have supassed Nazi Germany's killing of the jews with 60 million children murdered out of pure selfish reasons.

  You can argue the "exceptions" but we will still be in the tens of millions of lives taken simply because we are inconvienenced.  That to me is stunningly shocking and should be to you too.  I am simply surprised of your postition as one who proclaims himself to be a follower of Christ.  What should you and I do according to the teachings of the Bible, turn a blind eye to this?  Israel did and God punished them, his own chosen people.


I am not "arguing" exceptions.  I am saying at least one exists and until it is addressed, no secular laws concerning abortion will change much from what we have right now.  Based on my experience, MOST alleged "pro-lifers" favor an exception for rape.  Which makes them "pro-choice" - they just want to be in charge of deciding the circumstances under which that choice is permissible.  I am thinking your reluctance to address that particular situation in any way other than saying those account for very few abortions (which is true) means you're one of them.

And I am also saying that addressing that one exception means one has made a value judgment.  Which means one has to allow others the same opportunity.  There is a way to do that, and until it is done, NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE will occur to what we have now.   So the question remains: do you want to effect change or just make noise?

I will concede abortion is sin.  I will concede those who commit sin will be held accountable.  Some are forgiven, some are not, and God makes that determination.  I do not wish to get into the Doctrines of Grace  here, though. 

There are lots of sins that are not illegal under secular law.  I can think of several of the Big 10 right off: worshiping idols, failing to obersve the sabbath, dishonoring one's parents, coveting one's neighbor's stuff, adultery.  None of those things are illegal or punishable under secular law, nor did our founders think they should be.   Nor do I.  Those who do are like the Taliban.


  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #55 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:44am:
That goes to the core of why you refuse to believe, in my opinion.


I don't 'refuse' to believe in the Christian God any more than I 'refuse' to believe in Zeus or Odin ..  I'm just not wired to accept mythology as fact ..



  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #56 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:36pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:11am:
I am not "arguing" exceptions.  I am saying at least one exists and until it is addressed, no secular laws concerning abortion will change much from what we have right now.  Based on my experience, MOST alleged "pro-lifers" favor an exception for rape.  Which makes them "pro-choice" - they just want to be in charge of deciding the circumstances under which that choice is permissible.  I am thinking your reluctance to address that particular situation in any way other than saying those account for very few abortions (which is true) means you're one of them.

And I am also saying that addressing that one exception means one has made a value judgment.  Which means one has to allow others the same opportunity.  There is a way to do that, and until it is done, NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE will occur to what we have now.   So the question remains: do you want to effect change or just make noise?

I will concede abortion is sin.  I will concede those who commit sin will be held accountable.  Some are forgiven, some are not, and God makes that determination.  I do not wish to get into the Doctrines of Grace  here, though. 

There are lots of sins that are not illegal under secular law.  I can think of several of the Big 10 right off: worshiping idols, failing to obersve the sabbath, dishonoring one's parents, coveting one's neighbor's stuff, adultery.  None of those things are illegal or punishable under secular law, nor did our founders think they should be.   Nor do I.  Those who do are like the Taliban.



Well, I am not addressing what secular laws should be passed, only addressing our point of view and actions we can take as believers, which I have already addressed.  The foundation of all laws are based on the Ten Commandments whether the secular world agrees or not.  Abortion was illegal until the Supreme Court acted outside the boundaries of the Constitution and made it law.  If we are to fix it it will require the consensus of the people.  I do not suspect it will be, altered to some extent?  I hope so.  I believe we will be dealt with sometime down the road for this evil behavior.  As I stated, Israel was punished for what they did to their first born and I suspect eventually we will be held accountable for our own evil action.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #57 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:37pm
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Fiddler wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
I don't 'refuse' to believe in the Christian God any more than I 'refuse' to believe in Zeus or Odin ..  I'm just not wired to accept mythology as fact ..




Then this board is not for you.  Not my job to convince you,  I present the gospel and then it is between you and God to make that choice.  If you choose not to and refuse to acknowledge God and his payment on your behalf, then you and only you will have to give an account of your choice.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #58 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:45pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:36pm:
Well, I am not addressing what secular laws should be passed, only addressing our point of view and actions we can take as believers, which I have already addressed.  The foundation of all laws are based on the Ten Commandments whether the secular world agrees or not.  Abortion was illegal until the Supreme Court acted outside the boundaries of the Constitution and made it law.  If we are to fix it it will require the consensus of the people.  I do not suspect it will be, altered to some extent?  I hope so.  I believe we will be dealt with sometime down the road for this evil behavior.  As I stated, Israel was punished for what they did to their first born and I suspect eventually we will be held accountable for our own evil action.


That's your opinion.  Not that it was illegal, but that the Supreme Court acted outside the boundaries of the constitution.  (And I might note again that, even though illegal, it was a "crime" treated about like shoplifting.  NEVER treated as "murder.")

So we are done.  You have now clearly stated it is not your goal to affect secular law, just to make noise.  If you're not part of the solution, though, you are part of the problem.

I do find it somewhat offputting that you are so adamant that abortion is murder but don't seem to give a rip whether it is prosecuted as such under the laws of these United States.
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:57pm by EF »  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #59 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 4:45pm:
That's your opinion.  Not that it was illegal, but that the Supreme Court acted outside the boundaries of the constitution.  (And I might note again that, even though illegal, it was a "crime" treated about like shoplifting.  NEVER treated as "murder.")

So we are done.  You have now clearly stated it is not your goal to affect secular law, just to make noise.  If you're not part of the solution, though, you are part of the problem.

I do find it somewhat offputting that you are so adamant that abortion is murder but don't seem to give a rip whether it is prosecuted as such under the laws of these United States.

I don't think you care if it is prosecutable.  On one hand you state we are not the Taliban and then the next you want to criticize me for not wanting it to be a law (of course I want laws through our legal system as implemented by the founders).  The only change, since this is a Christian form, we can truly affect is individually through our testimony and conversion.  It also means we have a responsibility to ensure that our churches are preaching the gospel, not teaching or conforming to secularism.  I show a video called 180 by Ray Comfort, very effective video on abortion and it changed my wife's opinion about it.  Regarding the law about abortion, the Supreme Court MADE it law, that is NOT their role as is laid out in the Constitution, thus a factual statement unless you can cite me where in the Constitution the Supreme Court can make laws.  That is for the political forum though.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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