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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Abortion Murder? (Read 2,719 times)
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #60 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 5:17pm:
I don't think you care if it is prosecutable.  On one hand you state we are not the Taliban and then the next you want to criticize me for not wanting it to be a law (of course I want laws through our legal system as implemented by the founders).  The only change, since this is a Christian form, we can truly affect is individually through our testimony and conversion.  It also means we have a responsibility to ensure that our churches are preaching the gospel, not teaching or conforming to secularism.  I show a video called 180 by Ray Comfort, very effective video on abortion and it changed my wife's opinion about it.  Regarding the law about abortion, the Supreme Court MADE it law, that is NOT their role as is laid out in the Constitution, thus a factual statement unless you can cite me where in the Constitution the Supreme Court can make laws.  That is for the political forum though.


I do care.  I favor limits on abortion with those abortions that occur outside those limits prosecuted commensurate with the crime of murder. But I find a whole lot of alleged "pro-lifers" would be perfectly happy with a return to pre Roe vs Wade standards, when it was treated about like shoplifting.  I suspect you're one of them.

And you're flat wrong about the Supreme Court with regard to Roe Vs Wade.  But  you're right - that's for the political forum.  I know you're a smart guy, but I think the Supreme Court knows a tad more about the constitution than you do.

  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #61 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 5:30pm:
I do care.  I favor limits on abortion with those abortions that occur outside those limits prosecuted commensurate with the crime of murder. But I find a whole lot of alleged "pro-lifers" would be perfectly happy with a return to pre Roe vs Wade standards, when it was treated about like shoplifting.  I suspect you're one of them.

And you're flat wrong about the Supreme Court with regard to Roe Vs Wade.  But  you're right - that's for the political forum.  I know you're a smart guy, but I think the Supreme Court knows a tad more about the constitution than you do.


I am quite certain I am factually correct regarding the role of the Supreme Court.  That can be easily resolved by looking at the roughly 18 pages of the Constitution and the roles laid out by it for each branch, feel free to cite me where the Supreme Court can make laws.  Very few scholars see it differently.

Regarding laws about abortion, it should be very narrow in it's permissiveness and the penalties should be appropriate for those who kill the baby.  I am ok with the saving of the mother's life, not so much in favor of abortion for those raped.  Again, it is a personal view but not going to be reality with today's godless society.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #62 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:33pm
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Quote:
Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.
The role of the courts is to uphold the laws passed by Congress, to uphold the Constitution and to enforce treaties.  Nothing about the role of the court to make laws.  That is the sole responsibility of the LEGISLATIVE branch which is closest to the will of the people.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #63 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 6:25pm:
I am quite certain I am factually correct regarding the role of the Supreme Court.  That can be easily resolved by looking at the roughly 18 pages of the Constitution and the roles laid out by it for each branch, feel free to cite me where the Supreme Court can make laws.  Very few scholars see it differently.

Regarding laws about abortion, it should be very narrow in it's permissiveness and the penalties should be appropriate for those who kill the baby.  I am ok with the saving of the mother's life, not so much in favor of abortion for those raped.  Again, it is a personal view but not going to be reality with today's godless society.



I agree.  And a return to pre Roe vs Wade is as far from that as what we have now.  Yet I get the idea you'd be satisfied with that.

The supreme court does not make laws and did not make a law in Roe vs Wade.  It ruled a law was unconstitutional.  And that, my friend, is well within its jurisdiction.  Very few legal scholars disagree with that.

What they sometimes disagree on is whether the supreme court ruled correctly.  In the case of Roe vs Wade, I think they did.  You don't.  But 40 some years later, it's still in force. And there it is.

And you're also pro-choice. You just want to decide the criteria.
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2018 at 8:43pm by EF »  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #64 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:30pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
I agree.  And a return to pre Roe vs Wade is as far from that as what we have now.  Yet I get the idea you'd be satisfied with that.

The supreme court does not make laws and did not make a law in Roe vs Wade.  It ruled a law was unconstitutional.  And that, my friend, is well within its jurisdiction.  Very few legal scholars disagree with that.

What they sometimes disagree on is whether the supreme court ruled correctly.  In the case of Roe vs Wade, I think they did.  You don't.  But 40 some years later, it's still in force. And there it is.

And you're also pro-choice. You just want to decide the criteria. 

You can call me pro-choice all you want EF but you know as well as I do that is not the case. Hey, if it makes you feel more comfortable, you can call me anything you wish.  The point is very basic, we do not have the authority to take a life simply because it inconveniences our way of life.  In fact, I will go even further and state this is no different then when the Israelites sacrificed their children to the god of Baal.  The enemy simply changed the god of Baal to the god of self.  God does not look at the politics of our society, he looks at it as the law he has established and will judge accordingly, secularism has no role in his own judgement which is clear.  After all, he has the final say on sin and we both know he could not care the least how we define it.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #65 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:30pm:
You can call me pro-choice all you want EF but you know as well as I do that is not the case. Hey, if it makes you feel more comfortable, you can call me anything you wish.  The point is very basic, we do not have the authority to take a life simply because it inconveniences our way of life.  In fact, I will go even further and state this is no different then when the Israelites sacrificed their children to the god of Baal.  The enemy simply changed the god of Baal to the god of self.  God does not look at the politics of our society, he looks at it as the law he has established and will judge accordingly, secularism has no role in his own judgement which is clear.  After all, he has the final say on sin and we both know he could not care the least how we define it.


I'll let it go after this.

If a fellow tells me he is okay with a pregnant woman choosing to have an abortion (not requiring, mind you) if the pregnancy threatens that woman's life, then that fellow is "pro choice."  He just set a very narrow criterion for it.

If you tell me you are that fellow but you're not pro choice, you're a little delusional.  But it's a free country.


  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #66 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm:
I'll let it go after this.

If a fellow tells me he is okay with a pregnant woman choosing to have an abortion (not requiring, mind you) if the pregnancy threatens that woman's life, then that fellow is "pro choice."  He just set a very narrow criterion for it.

If you tell me you are that fellow but you're not pro choice, you're a little delusional.  But it's a free country.



Call it whatever you want, it seems you made this more about politics then the discussion of what is viewed Biblically.  Hate to tell you but God does not play politics EF.  Killing a baby for pure selfish reason is murder.  The discussion of the mother's life vs. a baby is very easily less then one percent of the lives lost which makes the number of 60 million an abomination no matter what.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #67 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:05pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
Call it whatever you want, it seems you made this more about politics then the discussion of what is viewed Biblically.  Hate to tell you but God does not play politics EF.  Killing a baby for pure selfish reason is murder.  The discussion of the mother's life vs. a baby is very easily less then one percent of the lives lost which makes the number of 60 million an abomination no matter what.


So would you be okay with a return to pre Roe vs Wade status with regard to abortion?
  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #68 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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EF wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:05pm:
So would you be okay with a return to pre Roe vs Wade status with regard to abortion?

So are we going to discuss politics regarding this thread or where we should be standing and what we can do to advance God's word to affect change?
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #69 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
So are we going to discuss politics regarding this thread or where we should be standing and what we can do to advance God's word to affect change?


I don't know why the two are mutually exclusive.  I think it's fine to preach that abortion is murder, but if one is not going to do anything to punish it as such on this side of the topsoil (and it wasn't punished as such pre Roe v Wade) or doesn't care whether it is or not, then I am not sure one really believes it's murder.  But I'll let it go.  When I discuss this subject I invariably alienate the alleged pro-lifers because I am too liberal and the pro-choicers because I am too conservative.  I fit nowhere.  The one time I had a detailed face to face discussion with an alleged pro-lifer about the subject and expressed my views he (a minister) had a really good reaction.  He just stared at me for about 30 seconds and finally said "Wow.  You've actually thought about it."  Which tells me he hadn't. 

But I find most people don't want to think about it.  Same with gay marriage.  Those two issues, abortion and gay marriage, are so fraught with emotion that rational discussion is just about impossible.  I am sorry I derailed your thread.  I did not mean to derail it.  When I see terms like "murder" I immediately jump to the conclusion we're talking about a crime prosecutable as such under secular laws.  I forget that there is another facet to it -"murder in the eyes of God but nobody on earth really cares enough about that to equate it with murder prosecutable under secular law."  You might get pro-choicers to agree with you on that interpretation.   
  

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