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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Abortion Murder? (Read 7,725 times)
Seawolf
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #70 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 4:12pm
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EF wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
I don't know why the two are mutually exclusive.  I think it's fine to preach that abortion is murder, but if one is not going to do anything to punish it as such on this side of the topsoil (and it wasn't punished as such pre Roe v Wade) or doesn't care whether it is or not, then I am not sure one really believes it's murder.  But I'll let it go.  When I discuss this subject I invariably alienate the alleged pro-lifers because I am too liberal and the pro-choicers because I am too conservative.  I fit nowhere.  The one time I had a detailed face to face discussion with an alleged pro-lifer about the subject and expressed my views he (a minister) had a really good reaction.  He just stared at me for about 30 seconds and finally said "Wow.  You've actually thought about it."  Which tells me he hadn't. 

But I find most people don't want to think about it.  Same with gay marriage.  Those two issues, abortion and gay marriage, are so fraught with emotion that rational discussion is just about impossible.  I am sorry I derailed your thread.  I did not mean to derail it.  When I see terms like "murder" I immediately jump to the conclusion we're talking about a crime prosecutable as such under secular laws.  I forget that there is another facet to it -"murder in the eyes of God but nobody on earth really cares enough about that to equate it with murder prosecutable under secular law."  You might get pro-choicers to agree with you on that interpretation.   
There may be no political solution that both sides will agree on and it seems that we keep going down the slippery slope that today we are aborting children well into the third trimester.  We also have a known organization that was started with evil intent to regulate those who some would deem unfit for society called Planned Parenthood.  So we are as a nation very ill in the eyes of God.

  The legislative battle is going to be very difficult to make headway.  Of course if you have thought this through then my question is what are you doing as a Christian to sway people from this horrific slaughter of our most innocent?

  Now regarding homosexuality, it is simple, it is a sin but I do not focus on homosexuality as it is a symptom of a much bigger issues as is abortion is.  I will never change my daughter's gay lifestyle no more then anyone was going to cure me of my pornography addiction.

These are signs of open rebellion to God, which is referred to as sin.  That is what you and I focus on and God does the rest.  My pornography was only "cured" after repenting and turning over my life to Jesus and that is exactly what has to happen to those who favor abortion, the gay lifestyle, drug addiction, adultery...  You are only addressing the topical issue when the real issue EF is the heart.

You are going to never convert souls arguing the intellect, you have to go to the heart.  You have to learn to use the concious to advocate on your behalf.

  Of course we come to another problem you have, you despise warning people of the consequences of rebellion or sin, one Jesus spoke more about then any other author in the Bible.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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EF
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #71 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 5:07pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 4:12pm:
There may be no political solution that both sides will agree on and it seems that we keep going down the slippery slope that today we are aborting children well into the third trimester.  We also have a known organization that was started with evil intent to regulate those who some would deem unfit for society called Planned Parenthood.  So we are as a nation very ill in the eyes of God.

  The legislative battle is going to be very difficult to make headway.  Of course if you have thought this through then my question is what are you doing as a Christian to sway people from this horrific slaughter of our most innocent?

  Now regarding homosexuality, it is simple, it is a sin but I do not focus on homosexuality as it is a symptom of a much bigger issues as is abortion is.  I will never change my daughter's gay lifestyle no more then anyone was going to cure me of my pornography addiction.

These are signs of open rebellion to God, which is referred to as sin.  That is what you and I focus on and God does the rest.  My pornography was only "cured" after repenting and turning over my life to Jesus and that is exactly what has to happen to those who favor abortion, the gay lifestyle, drug addiction, adultery...  You are only addressing the topical issue when the real issue EF is the heart.

You are going to never convert souls arguing the intellect, you have to go to the heart.  You have to learn to use the concious to advocate on your behalf.

  Of course we come to another problem you have, you despise warning people of the consequences of rebellion or sin, one Jesus spoke more about then any other author in the Bible.


No, you're putting words in my mouth.  Nowhere have I ever stated or implied I despise warning people of the consequences of sin.  What I have said is that no one has EVER been scared into a saving relationship.  EVER.  They can be scared into SAYING they have one, and especially when very young, but it takes more than that to HAVE one.  But that's deeper theology than I care to engage in right now.
  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #72 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 5:54pm
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I do not believe discussing the consequences of sin is scaring people as much as it informs the results of denying Christ, or as the Bible states blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #73 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 10:24pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 14th, 2018 at 5:54pm:
I do not believe discussing the consequences of sin is scaring people as much as it informs the results of denying Christ, or as the Bible states blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.


Discussing it is not.  These "turn or burn" sessions directed at elementary school children and sometimes older children and even adults are.  And that's the intent behind them.

But to answer your question about what I am doing with regard to abortion.  I am looking for someplace to fit in.  I definitely do not fit with the "abortion at any time up to the last day of gestation for any reason" group.  I also definitely do not fit with the "all abortion is murder group."  I have bounced around a little and find that I have precious little company in my thinking, which is:

The ruling in  Roe vs Wade was the logical result of laws against abortion because those laws were so namby pamby.  Abortion was not considered murder.  It was not even considered much of a crime.  Nobody really gave a rip about the poor little fetus, they just wanted abortion to be illegal.  Seldom was anyone prosecuted for it, and even when someone was, it was generally only the abortionist.  So the Supreme Court is looking at this and wondering what is the basis for making it illegal?  And it was simply that states found it offensive and wanted to prohibit it.  They didn't consider it murder and never intended to.  Nobody talked much about it, but they were fairly easy to obtain and generally without much consequence or outcry from the public.  After all, it was "illegal" and what more could you want?  The fact that reasonable estimates of abortions pre Roe vs Wade were in the tens of thousands didn't matter. 

The only abortions that matter are the ones that came AFTER Roe vs Wade.  Suddenly people are horrified.  They want to overturn that decision and go back to the "good old days" I described in the preceding paragraph.  When I try to discuss that with them I get a "deer in the headlights" look. Why would anybody who truly believes abortion is murder be satisfied with the status of abortion, under secular law, pre Roe vs Wade? It mystifies me. 

I wanted to volunteer at a pregnancy choice center.  Figured they could use some free accounting help, and accounting is the one thing I am pretty good at.  But their interview process was pretty stringent and I didn't do too well.  I didn't want a tenure track position and could easily have been fired at will, and they weren't going to pay me anything.  But I was just too "liberal."  I don't think anyone had ever made them think about the status of abortion pre Roe vs Wade.

When I am asked my opinion, I always express a desire to encourage a pregnant female to have the baby.  Give it up for adoption.  But I recognize that there are circumstances where a female is entitled, IMO, to a safe, legal abortion.  And that makes me an outcast.  Even though most alleged pro-lifers recognize that, too.  You're one, in fact.  You believe danger to the life of the mother is one. 

So I just don't fit.  And my wife doesn't like turmoil.
« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2018 at 10:36pm by EF »  

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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #74 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 12:10pm
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I do not believe standing on the street corner and yelling you all are going to hell is effective.  I do believe that when you talk about sin, the consequences and Christ death reveals the personal value of Jesus dying on our behalf.  Unbelievers see no real value about salvation until they see the real consequences of sin.  Once they understand this then the cross is seen as it was intended, God’s saving grace.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #75 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 12:20pm
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I find Ray Comforts style very effective in real life.  Below is one such example out of many you can find online.

  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #76 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 1:20pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Mar 15th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
Do you really not see the irony in this?  You are guilty of exactly the things you complain about.  How do you justify this if not by your vacillating morals.?


You amuse me, you just complained I shove my religious views down your throat and yet look what you are doing, chasing me on a Christian forum, the irony.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #77 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 4:33pm
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EF, here is a video of him witnessing to a young gay man.  He does a great job in speaking to him.

  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #78 - Mar 16th, 2018 at 7:22am
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I am going to remind those who have been visiting this forum that this is a forum for Christians.  We discuss our faith, encourage, learn, rejoice, teach...  This forum is not for those who do not believe, or who want to mock or dismiss our discussions.  IF you have honest questions and would like to hear our perspective or our insight we will gladly answer.  If on the other hand, you simply wish to dismiss,mock and/or ridicule, then this is not your forum.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Is Abortion Murder?
Reply #79 - Mar 16th, 2018 at 9:12am
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 15th, 2018 at 12:10pm:
I do not believe standing on the street corner and yelling you all are going to hell is effective.  I do believe that when you talk about sin, the consequences and Christ death reveals the personal value of Jesus dying on our behalf.  Unbelievers see no real value about salvation until they see the real consequences of sin.  Once they understand this then the cross is seen as it was intended, God’s saving grace.


I agree with you again. This has gotta stop.

We have a college here that sends people to scream bible verses at sinners when they enter restaurants that serve alcohol. At first they would scream in your face but now they have to stand across the street.
  

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