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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American military power (Read 655 times)
Queshank
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Re: American military power
Reply #20 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:16pm
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I've gotta go shower.  I always feel gross when I spend too much time defending Trump from what I consider inaccurate and unfair criticisms. 

At least when I spent 8 years doing the same for Obama I didn't need a shower.

But objectivity doesn't play favorites.  Despite the leftists on the boards fervent wishes to the contrary.

Seeya tomorrow maybe.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: American military power
Reply #21 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:19pm
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But if you don't consider Sun Tzu a political strategist (erroneously I believe ... especially when the major issues we're discussing are Asian countries who definitely do)

How about Machiavelli?

It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them.


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Demos
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Re: American military power
Reply #22 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:26pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:12pm:
Was NAFTA smart trade?

Depends on how you define by smart I suppose.

Quote:
Was it free trade?

Unfortunately, we don't have truly free trade, but it did reduce some (not all) barriers to trade, which is what these agreements are about. It's what renegotiating NAFTA should be about as well, since the economy has changed a lot since 1992-1993 (e.g., e-commerce).

Quote:
What were the reasons for that?

Was there only one?

Quote:
I mean ... it was a recommendation to the Trump administration from the "independent, bipartisan" U.S. International Trade Commission that he acted on.

They like imposing tariffs, so their recommendation isn't exactly surprising (they suggested steel tariffs back in 2002 against China).

Quote:
Are you suggesting there wasn't a problem they were trying to address?

Was there really a dumping problem back in 2002 when they recommended steel tariffs against China (when most of our steel was imported from Canada and Mexico and the real problem was the mills' legacy costs)? How'd those tariffs work out? Did they help the steel industry? Based on prior experience, not sure that relying on ITC recommendations is all that great.  

Quote:
My point is I don't think this is a fair example of a criticism against Trump.  For once he took advice from a bipartisan panel and he gets the shit end of that stick too?

He also appointed Robert Lighthizer, who supports protectionist policies, as US trade rep.

Quote:
Well did we really attack them or were we defending ourselves?

If we weren't there (with no constitutional authorization), would we have to defend ourselves? If we weren't getting caught up in the Syrian civil war, would we have to defend ourselves? What's the legal justification for being there at all? It's a new, undeclared war (with the potential for a more widespread conflict).
« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:59pm by Demos »  
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Re: American military power
Reply #23 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:19pm:
How about Machiavelli?

We can talk about Machiavelli (who was occassionally a diplomat) if you want, but I'm not sure what relevance his advice to the prince about keeping a new state has here? Or to the issue of whether or not US citizens should understand the aims/goals of our military actions.
  
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Re: American military power
Reply #24 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 5:29pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:16pm:
I've gotta go shower.  I always feel gross when I spend too much time defending Trump from what I consider inaccurate and unfair criticisms. 

At least when I spent 8 years doing the same for Obama I didn't need a shower.

But objectivity doesn't play favorites.  Despite the leftists on the boards fervent wishes to the contrary.

Seeya tomorrow maybe.

Queshank


You're gonna' spend all day in the shower?

  

Says the guy who "lost his shit after January 20, 2009."
(Or, am I the guy who shit his pants on 9/11 and spent the entire GWOT behind the safety of his monitor?  I can never remember.)

"He was born with the gift of laughter and the sense that the world was mad."
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Re: American military power
Reply #25 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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I really enjoy when Demos and Que have a back 'n forth. No drama, no devolving into ad-hom, ad nauseum...good stuff. Thanks for the read guys.
  

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Re: American military power
Reply #26 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
I really enjoy when Demos and Que have a back 'n forth. No drama, no devolving into ad-hom, ad nauseum...good stuff. Thanks for the read guys.



Agreed. However I must deduct marks for veering from the questions.
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Queshank
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Re: American military power
Reply #27 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:31pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:55pm:
We can talk about Machiavelli (who was occassionally a diplomat) if you want, but I'm not sure what relevance his advice to the prince about keeping a new state has here? Or to the issue of whether or not US citizens should understand the aims/goals of our military actions.


It has a tremendous amount to say about what we're dealing with right now in the Trump era.  It's practically a documentary of what's going on.

In fact that quote I shared was directly related to the conversation we are having here in this thread about a new approach to foreign policy.  And in fact a "new order" altogether under Trump and the reactions of the "Old Guard" and the tepid and unsure enthusiasm of the Republican Party.  I mean ffs Demos, Machiavelli might as well have been talking about Trump's election and the ensuing hysteria when he wrote that passage.

You've made an argument that we're not actually doing anything new regarding foreign policy.  If that's the case, why is everyone freaking the crappity smack out about it?  But you don't have to limit that "new order" analysis to foreign policy.  It applies across the board.

I've shared other quotes from Machiavelli on the boards that I think are relevant.  I won't bore you with the details.  I'm sure you've read "The Prince."  As you're involved in politics and you're well read.  In fact I'd be amazed if you hadn't Wink

Just like I'll bet both my testicles Trump has read both "The Art of War" AND "The Prince."  Both are invaluable in business management.  <Insert obligatory dismissal of Trump's ability to read and any suggestion that he would learn to be a businessman since he's SUCH a shitty businessman and joke about how now Queshank is a eunuch here.>

I want to specifically address your dismissal of Sun Tzu as a political manual.  Because you're simply wrong.  Especially in regards to Asian culture which absolutely sees all politics (and business) as warfare and Sun Tzu's advice as invaluable.  For expediency's sake I'll just share a snippet from wikipedia...

The book has also become popular among political leaders and those in business management. Despite its title, The Art of War addresses strategy in a broad fashion, touching upon public administration and planning. The text outlines theories of battle, but also advocates diplomacy and the cultivation of relationships with other nations as essential to the health of a state.


Take a look sometime at just how widely disseminated "The Art of War" is among Eastern leaders from Ho Chi Minh to Mao Zedong.  At how it has influenced the thinking of Chinese leaders in the modern era as they struggle to dominate as a world superpower.

Or take a look at how it influenced Russia and specifically its use by the KGB as a tool for deception.

I'm actually kind of surprised at your dismissal of this.  But I know you like to do research so I actually hope you'll look into this and perhaps get a little more understanding about why I think this book is invaluable in analyzing Trump.

Another wikipedia quote (I don't wanna get too in the weeds here I only want to convince you to pay more attention to this book especially when we're specifically talking about China, North Korea and Russia as adversaries on the global stage)

Many business books have applied the lessons taken from the book to office politics and corporate strategy.[18][19][20] Many Japanese companies make the book required reading for their key executives.[21] The book is also popular among Western business circles citing its utilitarian value regarding management practices. Many entrepreneurs and executives have turned to it for inspiration and advice on how to succeed in competitive business situations. The book has also been applied to the field of education.[22]

The Art of War is often quoted while developing tactics and/or strategy in Electronic Sports. Particularly, one of the fundamental books about e-sports, "Play To Win" by Massachusetts Institute of Technology graduate David Sirlin, is actually just an analysis about possible applications of the ideas from The Art of War in modern Electronic Sports.

It's one of the most important books in the history of human literature.

Queshank
« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:16pm by Queshank »  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Queshank
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Re: American military power
Reply #28 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:32pm
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PeterR wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 5:29pm:
You're gonna' spend all day in the shower?



You got a problem with that??!

No I expected to be busy the rest of the day.  I finished a project early and now here I am again.  Didja miss me?

Queshank
  

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Re: American military power
Reply #29 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:35pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
I really enjoy when Demos and Que have a back 'n forth. No drama, no devolving into ad-hom, ad nauseum...good stuff. Thanks for the read guys.


I just wish he wouldn't use logic and reason, facts and data to crush my arguments so often.  Sad

I actually wind up not being able to participate because our quote and respond discussion format gets pretty unwieldy after awhile.  It's kind of the same conundrum I wind up with regarding TL and Rabbit in the past.  These conversations get so in depth and detailed and it really reveals the limitations of forum discussions IMO.  I start to lose the thread.

But in all honesty Demos, if I'm ever Texas way I would love to have some drinks and about a 40 hour conversation lol. 

Don't worry!  I won't stalk you...I'll probly never make it to Texas.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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