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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American military power (Read 745 times)
Limey.
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Re: American military power
Reply #30 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:41pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:35pm:
I just wish he wouldn't use logic and reason, facts and data to crush my arguments so often.  Sad

I actually wind up not being able to participate because our quote and respond discussion format gets pretty unwieldy after awhile.  It's kind of the same conundrum I wind up with regarding TL and Rabbit in the past.  These conversations get so in depth and detailed and it really reveals the limitations of forum discussions IMO.  I start to lose the thread.

But in all honesty Demos, if I'm ever Texas way I would love to have some drinks and about a 40 hour conversation lol. 

Don't worry!  I won't stalk you...I'll probly never make it to Texas.

Queshank



Have you noticed-this absolutely is not a criticism- that on American chat room web forum net-boards, like what this is, even a question crying out for an international perspective stays firmly parochial?
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: American military power
Reply #31 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:10pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:41pm:
Have you noticed-this absolutely is not a criticism- that on American chat room web forum net-boards, like what this is, even a question crying out for an international perspective stays firmly parochial?


Surely you're not talking about your questions at the beginning of this thread!  You specifically asked for American perspectives!

But yes I have.  That's cuz we're god damned America Limey.  You best get used to your 2nd class status as a citizen of the world!

And we wonder why bin Laden hates us.  He told us why he hates us.  We spun it to "It's cuz we're America and we're awesome.  THATS why they hate us."

So pathetic.

Wait.  He's dead right? 

Then again does it matter?  We'll always find a new bin Laden. 

"Kim Jong Un!  Get up there.  You're up!"

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Demos
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Re: American military power
Reply #32 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:19pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 6:31pm:
If that's the case, why is everyone freaking the crappity smack out about it?

Partisanship, idiocy, both. Probably others things as well. There are a lot of things about Trump I don't care for, but I those things also don't seem all that new to me either.

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I'm sure you've read "The Prince."  As you're involved in politics and you're well read.  In fact I'd be amazed if you hadn't Wink

The Prince, The Discoursi, The Art of War, a collection of his letters, and Belphagor (his fictional work), as well as several biographies and interpretations. I like Machiavelli.

Quote:
I want to specifically address your dismissal of Sun Tzu as a political manual.

You can use it as a political manual, but it's still more about tactics and how to win the fight once it's started. And I'm not dismissing it's use as such, but rather dismissing it's application to not providing citizens in a republic or democracy with the reasons why they're going to war and what is hoped to be achieved.

When a democratic state is trying to generate political support for a war, it's better to tell people why you're doing or risk losing support. As Machiavelli pointed out quite frequently in his works, you need the support of the people, particularly in a republic where the citizens will be doing the fighting. 
« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:25pm by Demos »  
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Queshank
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Re: American military power
Reply #33 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:27pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:19pm:
Partisanship, idiocy, both. Probably others thing as well. There are a lot of things about Trump I don't care for, but I those things also don't seem all that new to me either.


And a big healthy dose of the body politic rejecting a foreign intrusion.  Exactly what Machiavelli is describing.  Partisanship, idiocy, somewhat irrational rationalizations and (in some cases) rational thought are simply the manifestations of that rejection.

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The Prince, The Discoursi, The Art of War, a collection of his letter, and Belphagor (his fictional work), as well as several biographies and interpretations. I like Machiavelli.


Me too.  (Like Machiavelli.)  I read the Discoursi becaues I was required to in a college class but I barely remember it.  But "The Prince" was a purchase I made because of Bill Clinton.  And since then I've actually bought it a few times as stocking stuffers for my more politically minded friends and relatives.  To this day I don't think any of them have read it.  They all seemed confused that I wanted to give it to them.  Ah well.

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You can use it as a political manual, but it's still more about tactics and how to win the fight once it's started.

And as a political manual, it's probably more useful for an autocratic or totalitarian state. However, when a democratic state is trying to generate political support for a war, it's better to tell people why you're doing or risk losing support. As Machiavelli pointed out quite frequently in his works, you need the support of the people, particularly in a republic where the citizens will be doing the fighting. 


Ah but even fighting to get the support of the people is a contest.  Everything in politics is a contest and a struggle.  The same mental processes apply.  That's why it's used as a business management book as well.  Competition is war.  Now with 98% less blood!

And as a political manual, it's probably more useful for an autocratic or totalitarian state.

Which dovetails nicely with the reactions to Trump's "style" incidentally ... which is one of the reasons I'm firmly convinced he's a true believer in both Machiavelli's writings and Sun Tzu's.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Demos
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Re: American military power
Reply #34 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:27pm:
And a big healthy dose of the body politic rejecting a foreign intrusion.

I don't think Trump is all that foreign. The only thing foreign about him is that he actually won, as opposed to other populist demagogues who lost (or in the case of Huey Long, died before they had the chance).

Quote:
Ah but even fighting to get the support of the people is a contest.  Everything in politics is a contest and a struggle.

Sure, and we should have a debate about when and why we go to war. And having that debate means establishing our aims and goals.

BTW, if you're ever in Austin, let me know.
  
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Limey.
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Re: American military power
Reply #35 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 8:08pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
Surely you're not talking about your questions at the beginning of this thread!  You specifically asked for American perspectives!



Ah indeed Yoda. But American Perspective, which sounds like a John Cougar Mellencamp album, should automatically include American Understanding (possibly a Springsteen EP)

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But yes I have.  That's cuz we're god damned America Limey.  You best get used to your 2nd class status as a citizen of the world!


I have a horrid feeling that “Team America!World Police!!” was misinterpreted as an HBO documentary by a sizable proportion of American voters and, worryingly, politicians.

Quote:
And we wonder why bin Laden hates us.  He told us why he hates us.  We spun it to "It's cuz we're America and we're awesome.  THATS why they hate us."

So pathetic.

Wait.  He's dead right? 

Then again does it matter?  We'll always find a new bin Laden. 

"Kim Jong Un!  Get up there.  You're up!"

Queshank


Bin Laden was crystal clear why he hated America. No need to second guess.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: American military power
Reply #36 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 8:10pm
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I must fly.

World of Tanks Blitz is calling.
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: American military power
Reply #37 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 10:28am
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Roll up roll up. 


Clever thoughtful posters welcome.
  

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Re: American military power
Reply #38 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 10:42am
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Demos wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
I don't think Trump is all that foreign. The only thing foreign about him is that he actually won, as opposed to other populist demagogues who lost (or in the case of Huey Long, died before they had the chance).


But my rebuttal is right there in your response.

"The only thing foreign about him is that he actually won."

That's how he became a foreign entity.  By winning and actually being part of the system of government.

I shouldn't have used the term "body politic."  That totally changed the meaning of what I was saying.  I was using it in haste as a term to refer to our government.  And mixing metaphors ... I was going to call Trump a cancer introduced into the host body.  That host body being the United States Government.  Said host body is rejecting him with everything in their power.

And that is exactly what the quote I shared from Machiavelli is describing.

Quote:
Sure, and we should have a debate about when and why we go to war. And having that debate means establishing our aims and goals.


No politician anywhere has ever been interested in having that debate.  They've only been interested in winning the contest and getting the support they need for what they want to do.  In as expedient a manner as possible. 

You can win a debate to win the contest.  Or you can do like Bush did in 2003.  Simply "persuade" the nation to go along with it with a goal manufactured and designed to maximize the potential for generating the necessary support.

Have we ever in our country's history had a debate about going to war?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Re: American military power
Reply #39 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 10:22pm
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***

First, to Demos and Que: Outstanding work, guys. It is indeed a
privilege to post on the same forum with the likes of the two of you.



As to adding to the conversation, just a couple comments.

First, I doubt that trumP ever read or comprehended either
Machiavelli or Sun Tzu, or at least not in any meaningful way
as it would pertain to his ascension to power or the Presidency.
He is just not that smart, nor is he that deep. He is a huckster.
A very celebrated and notorious huckster, but a huckster nonetheless.
I don't say this because I underestimate him. Nobody fears what
he might be capable of more than I do. However, just as many of us
might have underestimated trumP at our own peril, a like number of us
have clearly overestimated him at that same peril, and the last thing
that the rest of us need to do is to rush from the one extreme to the other.

Second, in a general comment re: the dissipation of American power or might,
I would argue that the greatest and continuing threat to our collective
will or might is not some foreign country or terrorist organization. Rather,
it is the growth of the multinational corporation and the consolidation
of all wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands. Russia, per se,
is no threat. Neither are India or Canada or Mexico. Even China is only
as much of a threat as we allow them to be. The real threat to our way
of life is the greed and power of corporations which are increasingly
either above the law or the actual law themselves. Militarily we can
still kick ass, and that won't go away any time soon. But of what
benefit is that to most working class Americans? And when was the
last time that we fought a war for anybody other than the rich and powerful?

***

  

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Risen so that you may find redemption.

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