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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner (Read 3,707 times)
Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #210 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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BowHunter wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 4:59pm:
But you simply assume that the communists in communist dictatures are the same as the communist in republics in spite of examples proving to you that they're not.

Isn't that simply the same as assuming that Christians in secular countries are the same as Christians in Christian dictatorships?

There's an obvious lack of consistency in your views.

I believe there is, obviously, far more uniformity amongst global communists in terms of political thought than there are amongst Christians.

For the former is an anti-human nature view of how things are to be done on earth both politically and economically. Communists ignore the human desire for competition and the great reality of scarcity. And so, their target is an unsustainable society, with the indirect affect of becoming a society where people are by necessity slaughtered.

In a nation where they are not the majority, or in fact are a small minority, or at least small enough to where they believe they have no chance at succeeding in grasping outright control over the levers of government, they remain relatively non-violent. Because in the end, communists are pu**ies, particularly in western societies. They are weak intellectuals with low testosterone production, or people who have failed miserably in life and wish to simply flip the game board over to f**k over other players.

Make no mistake, there are tough communists, but those are the ones where revolution actually has a chance of taking hold. Those people actually suffered, such as the communists who took over Russia or Cambodia. They had reason to flip over the game board, regardless of how bad their solutions were for the people they were ostensibly liberating. Che is another example. Terrible solutions. Helped f**k over an entire nation of people. But tough as nails.

I only differentiate between the communists of the West and the communists who took over places like Cambodia because it seemed interesting for me in the moment. They have similar ambitions and a similar idea of how government should wield power, only differing in terms of intestinal fortitude and/or toughness.

Whereas Christians vary wildly in terms of political thought. You have Christian libertarians, Christian socialists, Christians who are apolitical, a large number of Christian conservatives and Christian progressives.

There is no defining political target for the 2 billion Christians on earth. There is, on the other hand, for communists. So I find the comparison flawed.
  

None of this is real. Come on. From the micro (you're all Russian bots) to the macro (we're in a simulation of the past from some rich kid in 2813), let's just all agree that our lives are a beautiful fiction.
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BowHunter
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #211 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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this deserves a detailed answer and I have things to attend to. I'll give you a response tomorrow.
  

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wyattstorch2004
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #212 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 6:54pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 3:38pm:




Well that's where we disagree then. And I'd invite you to ponder the recent segregation of parts of your country, and see if the exclusion was ultimately an aggressive act against black people or not.


There were many, many separate acts.  The ones that physically trespassed (or threatened trespass) against a person or their property were.  Lynchings, forcing restaurants and schools, etc. to segregate, fire hoses turned on people against their will, etc. were all aggressive actions.  There is a major, key, objective difference.  That difference is physical trespass against people or their property, or the threat thereof. 

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Tricky to be satisfactory to everyone but the definition I was given during my legal training was similar to this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

... Which is absolutely charming and infuriating but also very sensible really.

I hope you enjoy reading it. Watch your blood pressure. Smiley


OK, but isn't this reasonable person test less a gauge of right and wrong (morally) and more a test of what understanding should have been gained from a set of objective, ideally uncontested facts?

BowHunter wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
Yes, and these people are criminals. They are the proponents of a society where people of other races than their own would be victimized and even killed, en masse. If that is not criminal behavior then not many things are.


It is your understanding that holding political beliefs in support of ideas that lead to deaths is criminal?  It has already been pointed out that communism has lead to people being killed, en masse.  Do you want to clarify or rethink that position?

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These are actually planning the murder of people on a large scale and given the chance, they will execute these plans.


A meeting is not, necessarily, an act of planning murder.  That is ridiculous.  Planning murder is planning murder.

Quote:
The Nazis in concentration camps were criminals but according to you, they shouldn't be given that the law back then agreed with them.


Also ridiculous.  Of course Nazi's who carried out actions in concentration camps were criminals.  They were directly involved in carrying out the infringement of rights.

Do you not see the difference between a person saying they support what Hitler did and a person that makes plans to do what Hitler did?

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You are dishonest. How many communists in this country are rooting for massacres.


How many Christians in this country are rooting for massacres?

Christians have a great deal of control in the US.  If you could choose communists or Christians being in control of the entire US, which would you choose?

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There are no example of Christian theocracies in the world where a great many of people didn't suffer as a result


Where are the great many suffering in the city state of the Vatican?

You know where there are a great many suffering?  The communist nation state of Venezuela. Edit: My mistake.  They are socialist, but it is a pretty close cousin of communism. 

What is the example of communist rule in which there wasn't a good deal of suffering?  Can we get into those and maybe work on why?
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2018 at 12:05am by wyattstorch2004 »  
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Limey.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #213 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:17pm
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 6:54pm:
There were many, many separate acts.  The ones that physically trespassed (or threatened trespass) against a person or their property were.  Lynchings, forcing restaurants and schools, etc. to segregate, fire hoses turned on people against their will, etc. were all aggressive actions.  There is a major, key, objective difference.  That difference is physical trespass against people or their property, or the threat thereof. 



I cordially disagree. Yes, the violence forced segregation; but so did a sign saying ‘no Negroes’. Or even just a hostile look. That’s the point-if you permit this wickedness you permit it, by whatever means. The result is the same-exclusion.


The injury isn’t the bruises from rubber bullets, bad though that is, it’s the fact of exclusion.


That is the aggression.

Quote:


OK, but isn't this reasonable person test less a gauge of right and wrong (morally) and more a test of what understanding should have been gained from a set of objective, ideally uncontested facts?


I knew it would twist your melon. It twists mine. But it’s goid, isn’t it? Basically it says “look, if you’ve got a bunch of people who aren’t dicks, who’ve been around, and are basically educated, decent, wise and in a fairly good mood-and prepared to put their fists up if need be- what would they say?”


And most of those adjectives are subjective adjectives not objective adjectives.


But it’s still good, ‘cos you have an instinctive grip of what it means.


  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #214 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 8:05pm
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Fiddler wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Being asked to bake a cake is criminal..

[/Harry's World]

There were no doubt dozens of other bakeries, explain why this specific bakery has to be compelled against their will when there were others.  Interesting how you cry about being forced to observe Christian values and here you are forcing your values on a Christian bakery.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Seawolf
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #215 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 8:19pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:17pm:
I cordially disagree. Yes, the violence forced segregation; but so did a sign saying ‘no Negroes’. Or even just a hostile look. That’s the point-if you permit this wickedness you permit it, by whatever means. The result is the same-exclusion.


The injury isn’t the bruises from rubber bullets, bad though that is, it’s the fact of exclusion.


That is the aggression.


I knew it would twist your melon. It twists mine. But it’s goid, isn’t it? Basically it says “look, if you’ve got a bunch of people who aren’t dicks, who’ve been around, and are basically educated, decent, wise and in a fairly good mood-and prepared to put their fists up if need be- what would they say?”


And most of those adjectives are subjective adjectives not objective adjectives.


But it’s still good, ‘cos you have an instinctive grip of what it means.



Exclusion is violent!?  So I am going to ask this again, should a black baker be held to the same standards for refusing to bake a cake for the KKK?
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #216 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 8:22pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 7:17pm:
I cordially disagree. Yes, the violence forced segregation; but so did a sign saying ‘no Negroes’. Or even just a hostile look. That’s the point-if you permit this wickedness you permit it, by whatever means.


Not at all.  I would not permit the wickedness, in any form,  in my home or business.  And I would not expect the law to permit actual trespass.  There is a difference.  Any argument against my position that would ignore the difference would be a stupid argument.

Quote:
The result is the same-exclusion.


It isn't the same.  Exclusion by force is aggressive.  Exclusion by simply declining to associate is not.

If I die, I am excluding you from associating with me in a transaction.  I am not, however, acting aggressively toward you.  Even if I die at my own hand.  Your logic requires that death or choosing to move or close a shop is an aggressive act.  I ludicrous idea.

Quote:
The injury isn’t the bruises from rubber bullets, bad though that is, it’s the fact of exclusion.

That is the aggression.


The physical initiation of force (or threat thereof0 -- the rubber bullets -- is the aggression.  Choosing not to associate is not.  Where is the trespass or threat of such?  Where have I trespassed  or threatened  trespass against you or your property in refusing to associate?


Quote:
I knew it would twist your melon. It twists mine. But it’s goid, isn’t it? Basically it says “look, if you’ve got a bunch of people who aren’t dicks, who’ve been around, and are basically educated, decent, wise and in a fairly good mood-and prepared to put their fists up if need be- what would they say?”


And most of those adjectives are subjective adjectives not objective adjectives.


But it’s still good, ‘cos you have an instinctive grip of what it means.


People who supported slavery -- and the same sort of forced service you support (I am speaking in terms of form not degree, so relax) --  at the peak of the slave trade were considered reasonable in their time, weren't they?  How did that work out?  It was considered reasonable, at one point, to have the separate lunch counters you alluded to.  Sorry if I don't trust the majority of "reasonable" people to decide what is and isn't arbitrary.  The world ought to be governed by laws not by the whims of people. 

Folks following your proposed system of law could have justified their institution of slavery by pointing to all the "reasonable" people that went right along with it. 

Not the case with mine. 

My form of law would have been unequivocally against it.  It would not be a hard decision.  It would be plainly and painfully obvious.  Slavery is a clear and obvious trespass against the body and property of the enslaved.

Your guys?  Not so much.  "Serve me!" would have been their thought on the matter, as it is yours in today's take on the issue of forced service.
  
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Limey.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #217 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:01pm
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Seawolf wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 8:19pm:
Exclusion is violent!?  So I am going to ask this again, should a black baker be held to the same standards for refusing to bake a cake for the KKK?


Yes.

I don’t know much about your kkk, I’m assuming they’re an equivalent of our embarrassing dick heads in the EDL.

Assuming the kkkcake is not in itself illegal, or showing imagery (I further assume the kkk can’t write) advocating violence... why not?


  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #218 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:09pm
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Wyatstorch, it’s not forced service.

It’s voluntary service.

To everyone.  That’s what a business is. It’s you volunteering your service to everyone, for money. That’s the definition of a business.

Volunteering your service to anyone who wants to pay for it.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #219 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm
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well it seems that cakes aren't the only thing that "christians" don't want to make for gays. I wonder would a christian home builder want to refuse to build a home that SSM people would buy, how about a car dealer, mechanic, house painter ...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/12/governor-company-shouldnt-have-to-make-gay-...
  
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