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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner (Read 6,106 times)
wyattstorch2004
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #220 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
Yes.

I don’t know much about your kkk, I’m assuming they’re an equivalent of our embarrassing dick heads in the EDL.

Assuming the kkkcake is not in itself illegal, or showing imagery (I further assume the kkk can’t write) advocating violence... why not?




To not make it would be an act of violence, yes?

If you carried out this violent act, the KKK member would be justified in punishing you, physically, or using the state to do so?

Quote:
Wyatstorch, it’s not forced service.

It’s voluntary service.


No it isn't.  LOL.

What happens if I choose not to volunteer to make your cake depicting various beers and spirits because I find drunkenness to be wrong?  I willingly volunteer to make cakes with birthday balloons and wedding bells, but not liquor and beer?

When I say no, what?  Is that violence?  How will you enforce this "voluntary" act?  Are you justified in physically forcing me to act? Keep in mind that if it is voluntary this discussion doesn't happen, right?  Clearly it isn't voluntary.  If it were we would not need to discuss the punishment, right?

Quote:
To everyone.  That’s what a business is. It’s you volunteering your service to everyone, for money. That’s the definition of a business.


In what contorted definition of "a business" is serving "everyone" a necessary condition?  Even you don't believe that! Remember?  You aren't for serving everyone.  You admit their are reasons one could gain permission from dear leaders to not be forced to work.  Remember our discussion about what is reasonable or arbitrary?

You have indicated that A) refusing service to someone is exclusion and, therefore, an act of aggressive violence.  and B) this exclusion takes one outside the realm of a business, by definition.

If you combine these two stances you have taken, your position dictates that a grocery store which tells people without shoes they cannot shop there is committing an act of aggressive violence every time it applies that policy that, by having such a policy, it is, by definition, not a business.  Is that really your position?  Can you clarify, if it is not?
  
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wyattstorch2004
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #221 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:31pm
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USyeah wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm:
well it seems that cakes aren't the only thing that "christians" don't want to make for gays. I wonder would a christian home builder want to refuse to build a home that SSM people would buy, how about a car dealer, mechanic, house painter ...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/12/governor-company-shouldnt-have-to-make-gay-...


And just think, anyone who disagrees with those home builders, mechanics, car dealers, etc. Can know the feelings of those people and choose to avoid working for or buying from them.  Rather than letting people continue to associate with them because their true nature is forcefully hidden.

I would rather see them fail when everyone sees that they are bad people, than continue to succeed.

Although Limey might see this widespread decision to not associate with these home builders, car dealers, mechanics, etc. as aggressive violence, I see it as a legitimate, lawful decision made by participants in the market seeking their own interests (even when those interests are more selfless interests in the proper treatment of others).
  
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #222 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 12:16am
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the problem is the same as it always is when a minority wants equality. leaving it up to the majority, in this case christians, with like beliefs will not have any effect on the people's businesses because there is no reason to not do business with them. and there is the reason that the courts advance rights not relying on the majority of people.

  
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #223 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 3:29am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
I've been arguing property rights, I believe, the entire time. Perhaps I mentioned religion and forgot about it, but I don't believe I've used religious beliefs as my primary argument, if at all.


***

You're absolutely correct, sir. At some point my rant drifted away
from your argument and lost its way in the metaphysical ether. Still,
I don't believe that at its core this is strictly a property rights argument.

***
  

Banned for your sins.

Risen so that you may find redemption.

Amen.
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Lomelis
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #224 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:26am
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Limey. wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
Wyatstorch, it’s not forced service.

It’s voluntary service.

To everyone.  That’s what a business is. It’s you volunteering your service to everyone, for money. That’s the definition of a business.

Volunteering your service to anyone who wants to pay for it.


Except in the case where the business owner does not wish to serve everyone.

A business can exclude people, you've clearly stated reasons in which -you- believe they can and should.  So it isn't about serving everyone equally, it's about you wanting to ensure that businesses are forced, through the threat of violence, to serve people that -you- think they should.

For some reason you believe that you can decide who they serve, and not the owner of the business.

  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Lomelis
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #225 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:33am
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USyeah wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm:
well it seems that cakes aren't the only thing that "christians" don't want to make for gays. I wonder would a christian home builder want to refuse to build a home that SSM people would buy, how about a car dealer, mechanic, house painter ...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/12/governor-company-shouldnt-have-to-make-gay-...


There are a lot of services that people wouldn't really want to provide.

I would refuse to service Neo Nazis, KKK members, pedophiles, rapists, murderers, thieves, etc.   A vast majority of decent people probably wouldn't either unless they lived in communities just full of degenerates.

Of course that might not be nice and those assholes might be offended and have to take their business elsewhere.  Oh noes!

« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:56am by Lomelis »  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Limey.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #226 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:28am
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Lomelis wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 4:26am:
Except in the case where the business owner does not wish to serve everyone.

A business can exclude people, you've clearly stated reasons in which -you- believe they can and should.  So it isn't about serving everyone equally, it's about you wanting to ensure that businesses are forced, through the threat of violence, to serve people that -you- think they should.

For some reason you believe that you can decide who they serve, and not the owner of the business.



You’re making essentially the same points as Rabbit, so I’ll just answer the one if that’s ok with you and The Bunny.

If you open a business to the public that’s all of them (and the exceptions aren’t based upon prejudice they’re based on things like hygiene, decorum, and the ability to pay).


It’s an interesting diversion in to different cake territory whe Rabbit asks about my cake with pictures of beer on it (what are you implying, you cheeky bastard? Angry ) but not the point.


The exclusion of people because of innate or chosen characteristics -being a Communist, or a Republican, or gay, or black-  is absolutely a hostile act.  One cake shop doing it? Well, meh. No big deal.

But, and it’s a big but*, if we as a society say this is OK, we’re opening the door to exclusion from all sorts of things that are more significant than cake.  I mean, I like cake but there are bigger issues.





* you can put a Michelle Obama joke here if you like, Jasmine.  Be my guest.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #227 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:47am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 5:12pm:
I believe there is, obviously, far more uniformity amongst global communists in terms of political thought than there are amongst Christians.

That's ridiculously wrong. It's the exact opposite. While there is a great variety of communists the Christians are in large majority Catholics ,  who will believe whatever the hell the pope tells them to believe.

Quote:
For the former is an anti-human nature view of how things are to be done on earth both politically and economically. Communists ignore the human desire for competition and the great reality of scarcity. And so, their target is an unsustainable society, with the indirect affect of becoming a society where people are by necessity slaughtered.


You don't base a society on some cliched idea of human nature. Human nature has changed a lot throughout the centuries, it used to be that human nature allowed a father to kill his children for no reason. It used to be in human nature to sacrifice people to get the favors of god(s). Human nature is whatever we say it is and the opposite.

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In a nation where they are not the majority, or in fact are a small minority, or at least small enough to where they believe they have no chance at succeeding in grasping outright control over the levers of government, they remain relatively non-violent. Because in the end, communists are pu**ies, particularly in western societies. They are weak intellectuals with low testosterone production, or people who have failed miserably in life and wish to simply flip the game board over to f**k over other players.

Make no mistake, there are tough communists, but those are the ones where revolution actually has a chance of taking hold. Those people actually suffered, such as the communists who took over Russia or Cambodia. They had reason to flip over the game board, regardless of how bad their solutions were for the people they were ostensibly liberating. Che is another example. Terrible solutions. Helped f**k over an entire nation of people. But tough as nails.

I only differentiate between the communists of the West and the communists who took over places like Cambodia because it seemed interesting for me in the moment. They have similar ambitions and a similar idea of how government should wield power, only differing in terms of intestinal fortitude and/or toughness.

Whereas Christians vary wildly in terms of political thought. You have Christian libertarians, Christian socialists, Christians who are apolitical, a large number of Christian conservatives and Christian progressives.

There is no defining political target for the 2 billion Christians on earth. There is, on the other hand, for communists. So I find the comparison flawed.


The rest is nothing but your own opinion vaguely based on ill-understood and much less known historical precedents.

Communists are like everyone else some are tough, some aren't. But calling someone a weakling because they happen to disagree with you is stupid and makes you sound like an internet tough guy. No one with a brain in his head will ever admire those. So if you know what's good for you, you'll cease these pathetic attempts at sounding like some Rambo.

If there was any honesty/ consistency in your "analysis" then you'd call wimps the KKK who never killed a black guy and the Christians who are unwilling to burn a witch at the stake.

Go ahead, say they are wimps. 

Then you'll be consistent...
  

Queshank wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 9:13am:
FC,

I've been thinking about how I can respond conversationally without coming across as a total dick.

Queshank
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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #228 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:19am
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BowHunter wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:47am:
That's ridiculously wrong. It's the exact opposite. While there is a great variety of communists the Christians are in large majority Catholics ,  who will believe whatever the hell the pope tells them to believe.

Two things stand out as flaws here, one being quite quantitative.

1. Is 53% a large majority? Because that's a sourced number of catholics when in comparison to the 2.42 billion Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_membe...

2. You believe there is more political uniformity amongst catholics than there is amongst communists? Catholics voted in (large?) majority for Trump at 52%, 45% for Hillary Clinton. This, after Trump had some less-than-friendly exchanges with the Pope, and the Pope even went so far as to question Trump's faith (which, I do as well, in all honesty).

One would think such a homogenous political voting block would have more uniformity. Whereas, most likely, nearly 100% of American communists who did vote for one of the two major candidates voted for Hillary Clinton.

So what is the Pope telling people to do? And are the 1 billion or so Catholics actually following through on those demands?

What evidence do you have of political uniformity amongst Catholics? When all I have to support political uniformity amongst communists is the fact that they all call themselves communists, which is a specific set of political positions, particularly with regard to property.

To call me "ridiculously wrong" here might be the most inaccurate thing you've ever written.

BowHunter wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:47am:
You don't base a society on some cliched idea of human nature. Human nature has changed a lot throughout the centuries, it used to be that human nature allowed a father to kill his children for no reason. It used to be in human nature to sacrifice people to get the favors of god(s). Human nature is whatever we say it is and the opposite.

If "human nature" changes, then that's not human nature.

There is a nature to our species. Some things change given changing environmental conditions, but our genes are not evolving with any significance over "centuries". So if humanity generally behaves in a certain way over the millennia, and that behavior loosely coincides with similar behavior in higher primates, then you might have something called "human nature".

Culture changes over shorter periods of time. Human nature does not.

BowHunter wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:47am:
Communists are like everyone else some are tough, some aren't. But calling someone a weakling because they happen to disagree with you is stupid and makes you sound like an internet tough guy. No one with a brain in his head will ever admire those. So if you know what's good for you, you'll cease these pathetic attempts at sounding like some Rambo.

I understand it's anecdotal, and I partly say it as a troll because you obviously identify at least to a certain degree with communists, but every single person I've ever met who has sympathy towards communism or identifies as a communist falls into one of those two categories.

These are American and a couple of European communists, mind you.

1. Extremely slender, low testosterone academics, both students and professors. They have known no real hardship in life, having spent so much time behind the walls of academia. They think they are smarter than everybody, and therefore their plans for the economy are undoubtedly more enlightened than crude market forces. They have never run a business, or been a major piece within a business.

2. Complete failures in life. They want to tip the board over.

That's it. That's all of them.

I'm not saying I'm tough. I'm not. But I'm not American-communist-level soy-boy either.

BowHunter wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 5:47am:
If there was any honesty/ consistency in your "analysis" then you'd call wimps the KKK who never killed a black guy and the Christians who are unwilling to burn a witch at the stake.

Go ahead, say they are wimps. 

I called every member of the KKK a "coward" in this very thread. You may have missed it. It was when we were talking about why they wear hoods. You said it was "because they are criminals". I disagreed, and said it was because they are all "cowards". I also said they were likely snorting meth and drinking moonshine.

However, I won't call all Christians "wimps" if they don't burn a witch at the stake, because that's something Jesus Christ (whether real or not, whether divine or not) would never advocate. I mean obviously.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:33am by Rabbit_Reborn »  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Re: Judge Sticks It to LGBT Activists in Special Ruling for Cake Shop Owner
Reply #229 - Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:36am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 13th, 2018 at 9:19am:
Two things stand out as flaws here, one being quite quantitative.

1. Is 53% a large majority? Because that's a sourced number of catholics when in comparison to the 2.42 billion Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_membe...

2. You believe there is more political uniformity amongst catholics than there is amongst communists? Catholics voted in (large?) majority for Trump at 52%, 45% for Hillary Clinton. This, after Trump had some less-than-friendly exchanges with the Pope, and the Pope even went so far as to question Trump's faith (which, I do as well, in all honesty).

One would think such a homogenous political voting block would have more uniformity. Whereas, most likely, nearly 100% of American communists who did vote for one of the two major candidates voted for Hillary Clinton.

So what is the Pope telling people to do? And are the 1 billion or so Catholics actually following through on those demands?

What evidence do you have of political uniformity amongst Catholics? When all I have to support political uniformity amongst communists is the fact that they all call themselves communists, which is a specific set of political positions, particularly with regard to property.

To call me "ridiculously wrong" here might be the most inaccurate thing you've ever written.

If "human nature" changes, then that's not human nature.

There is a nature to our species. Some things change given changing environmental conditions, but our genes are not evolving with any significance over "centuries". So if humanity generally behaves in a certain way over the millennia, and that behavior loosely coincides with similar behavior in higher primates, then you might have something called "human nature".

Culture changes over shorter periods of time. Human nature does not.

I understand it's anecdotal, and I partly say it as a troll because you obviously identify at least to a certain degree with communists, but every single person I've ever met who has sympathy towards communism or identifies as a communist falls into one of those two categories.

These are American and a couple of European communists, mind you.

1. Extremely slender, low testosterone academics, both students and professors. They have known no real hardship in life, having spent so much time behind the walls of academia. They think they are smarter than everybody, and therefore their plans for the economy are undoubtedly more enlightened than crude market forces. They have never run a business, or been a major piece within a business.

2. Complete failures in life. They want to tip the board over.

That's it. That's all of them.

I'm not saying I'm tough. I'm not. But I'm not American-communist-level soy-boy either.

I called every member of the KKK a "coward" in this very thread. You may have missed it. It was when we were talking about why they wear hoods. You said it was "because they are criminals". I disagreed, and said it was because they are all "cowards". I also said they were likely snorting meth and drinking moonshine.

However, I won't call all Christians "wimps" if they don't burn a witch at the stake, because that's something Jesus Christ (whether real or not, whether divine or not) would ever advocate. I mean obviously.



Frédéric Joliot-Curie: awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry... He's also a communist.

Jean Moulin: Remembered as the symbol of the French resistance, betrayed and captured by the Nazis, tortured for days and then executed. Interred in the Pantheon, the highest honor ever bestowed upon heroes of the French republic regardless of political stances. He also was a communist.


And there are plenty more where those two came from.

The communists were known for their active role in the French resistance.


So much for your... categories.
  

Queshank wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 9:13am:
FC,

I've been thinking about how I can respond conversationally without coming across as a total dick.

Queshank
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