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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible (Read 653 times)
Harrys Sockpuppet4335
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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #50 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:29pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:25pm:
There's a lot of difference between "honest mistake" & "recklessness" or "deliberate misbehaviour".


The first can easily be forgiven and any harm addressed by insurance.
The latter two less so.


The insurance you speak of should be supplied by the employer instead of the individuals in your scenario. The individuals work for the employer instead of themselves, and are not defined as independent agents for insurance purposes.

It's my opinion that everyone with means should carry an umbrella liability policy, but such would not apply here.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #51 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:36pm
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Harrys Sockpuppet4335 wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
The insurance you speak of should be supplied by the employer instead of the individuals in your scenario. The individuals work for the employer instead of themselves, and are not defined as independent agents for insurance purposes.

It's my opinion that everyone with means should carry an umbrella liability policy, but such would not apply here.


I could see the employer (taxpayer) helping to pay the insurance premium for the officers but anything above that average premium would signal higher than average risk and as such should be the officers own cost.

The choice to insure any particular officer should be a private commercial decision based on risk and reward. This way if an especially dangerous officer has their policy cancelled, they will be unable to work in the same capacity.

The key is to make the individual liable so that this form of insurance does not turn into moral hazard. For that is essentially what we have now.
  

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Limey.
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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #52 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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Harrys Sockpuppet4335 wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
The insurance you speak of should be supplied by the employer instead of the individuals in your scenario. The individuals work for the employer instead of themselves, and are not defined as independent agents for insurance purposes.

It's my opinion that everyone with means should carry an umbrella liability policy, but such would not apply here.



No argument with the point about employers covering for honest mistakes.


I'm not sure there's a moral principle in there, but I can't imagine anybody would object strongly.

Since I've been self employed again I have paid a lot of attention to (& a lot of money for) liability insurance.


Like my £19 monthly to a union when employed, money well spent.
  

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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #53 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:39pm
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Limey. wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:25pm:
There's a lot of difference between "honest mistake" & "recklessness" or "deliberate misbehaviour".


The first can easily be forgiven and any harm addressed by insurance.
The latter two less so.

I am most familiar with the laws of New York State, but I am sure other states have similar laws regarding the circumstances where an officer may be indemnified and when they are not.

The New York State Criminal Procedure Law lays it out pretty plainly..

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/criminal-procedure-law/cpl-sect-2-20.html

" A peace officer, whether or not acting pursuant to his special duties, who lawfully exercises any of the powers conferred upon him pursuant to this section, shall be deemed to be acting within the scope of his public employment for purposes of defense and indemnification rights and benefits that he may be otherwise entitled to under the provisions of section fifty-k of the general municipal law , section seventeen or eighteen of the public officers law , or any other applicable section of law. "

BTW, for many years I was an instructor in our Police Academy.  Every officer receives this and much more training both as part of the Basic Training Program and on an annual basis.
  

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Harrys Sockpuppet4335
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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #54 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:36pm:
I could see the employer (taxpayer) helping pay a flat insurance premium for the officers but anything above that premium that reflects a particular officers risk potential should be his own cost.

And the choice to insure any particular officer should be a private commercial decision based on risk and reward. This way if an especially dangerous officer has their policy cancelled, they will be unable to work in the same capacity.

The key is to make the individual liable so that this form of insurance does not turn into moral hazard. For that is essentially what we have now.


The employer is responsible for hiring and therefore is responsible for ensuring the behavior of those hired are suitably trained to do the job correctly.

A system such as you propose would never work. Insurance companies wouldn't provide individual policies, for one. If they did, the costs would be prohibitive and disincentivize participation. If participation were mandatory, the pool of potential employees would dry up, as there is no incentive to work a regular job, much less a dangerous one, without commensurate compensation.
  

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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #55 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:49pm
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Harrys Sockpuppet4335 wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:41pm:
The employer is responsible for hiring and therefore is responsible for ensuring the behavior of those hired are suitably trained to do the job correctly.


Sure and to that end it makes sense for them to design rules and practices that can achieve that goal. In short, they need a means for ensuring the behavior of their employees is suitable.

And liability policies are one way to do that.

Quote:
A system such as you propose would never work. Insurance companies wouldn't provide individual policies, for one.


I doubt that is true. They provide individual auto insurance policies. If there is a risk you will find someone to insure against it, for the right price. Insurance companies love taking your money!

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If they did, the costs would be prohibitive and disincentivize participation.


Not necessarily. The costs would only be prohibitive to those officers who had a reputation of abusing their authority. If most cops are doing an honest and professional job, then the costs would be quite low. And overtime the costs would fall as this new incentive weeded out the most risky officers and incentivized the rest to be more conscientious.
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If participation were mandatory, the pool of potential employees would dry up, as there is no incentive to work a regular job, much less a dangerous one, without commensurate compensation.

Participation would need to be mandatory for this to work at all. I don't believe the pool of potential employees would dry up mainly because I do not believe that the kind of people who want this job are driven primarily by a desire to harm others without responsibility.

Perhaps certain kinds of people would be disincentivized from seeking a career in law enforcement. And thats a good thing, I would argue.
  

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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #56 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 5:02pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Feb 11th, 2018 at 4:49pm:
Sure and to that end it makes sense for them to design rules and practices that can achieve that goal. In short, they need a means for ensuring the behavior of their employees is suitable.

And liability policies are one way to do that.


I doubt that is true. They provide individual auto insurance policies. If there is a risk you will find someone to insure against it, for the right price. Insurance companies love taking your money!


Not necessarily. The costs would only be prohibitive to those officers who had a reputation of abusing their authority. If most cops are doing an honest and professional job, then the costs would be quite low. And overtime the costs would fall as this new incentive weeded out the most risky officers and incentivized the rest to be more conscientious.
Participation would need to be mandatory for this to work at all. I don't believe the pool of potential employees would dry up mainly because I do not believe that the kind of people who want this job are driven primarily by a desire to harm others without responsibility.

Perhaps certain kinds of people would be disincentivized from seeking a career in law enforcement. And thats a good thing, I would argue.


I'm not gonna play the parsing game.

A government entity imposing a required insurance policy on an employee is unconstitutional, just as Obamacare is.

Risk is the basis for insurance. The higher the risk, the higher the cost of the insurance. Young and bad drivers pay extremely high premiums to drive because of the risk. The same risk assessment would apply to new hires for a police department. The young and inexperienced would pay rates for that insurance, even if you could find an insurance company that would underwrite the risk to start, that their entire salary and probably more would be required as a premium for the coverage.

If you were asked how much you would charge to indemnify a young guy with no experience who carried a weapon and worked in an environment filled with stressful events and the criminal element, were told that his job was to control that criminal environment and make split second decisions in order to control that criminal environment with limited training, and that he was allowed to use his weapon at his young age and with his limited experience while performing his duty of controlling that criminal, unpredictable environment, what would your answer be?
  

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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #57 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:02am
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any city that makes officers responsible for this will be in desperate need of new officers, to which I would wish them good luck
  
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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #58 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:56am
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USyeah wrote on Feb 12th, 2018 at 12:02am:
any city that makes officers responsible for this will be in desperate need of new officers, to which I would wish them good luck



Good officers are having no problems coming West getting jobs and getting more pay.  They are coming West so they do not have to put up with back East BS!!
  



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Re: New policy change in Baltimore could make police officers financially responsible
Reply #59 - Feb 12th, 2018 at 1:13am
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good for them!

  
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