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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How much damage will tariffs really do? (Read 1,006 times)
Limey.
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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #30 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:31pm
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Queshank wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:45pm:
The entire reason I call shenanigans on this claim by you Limey is while the Brexit vote was going on I watched a woman from the UK on Real Time with Bill Maher make the case that leaving Brexit was a free trade move.

That might not be why the vote passed.  But it was definitely one of the reasons it was supported by people who voted leave and definitely one of the reasons why the people who campaigned FOR Brexit were campaigning for Brexit.

You can take my word for it Limey.  I'm an American.  I just know these things.

It really sounds like you're making the same argument for Brexit happening because of your ignorant, stupid, racist neighbors as leftists have erroneously been making here as to why Trump won the election.  So I'm instantly skeptical even tho I respect your objectivity and opinions immensely. 

Queshank



I can’t comment on why various ignorant, stupid people vote in America.

It’s not up for debate why Brexit happened.

It’s because of ignorant, stupid people voting.


That’s not me being any sort of lefty cry baby. It’s straightforwardly what happened.

Similarities with Trump (lol ‘Mr. President-what an honour!!!’ after every classroom fart)  are obvious.

Don’t care. My clear statement that Brexit was a foolish vote by xenophobic idiots stands.


I don’t want to help you in your Democrats are Doomed project here, it’s not similar enough. Brexit wasn’t a left/right issue, it was a stupid/clever and a decent/nasty one.


The Left here didn’t lose coherence over it; no more than did the Right.


All that happened was a light was shone on the unpleasant fact that 33% of my countrymen are crappity smacking nasty bitches and some of our politicians put personal position over the nation’s best interest.


We knew that. But we are now paying for this redundant lesson.
  

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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #31 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm
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Limey,

Has there been much conjecture in Olde Blighty that Russian hackers might have altered the Brexit vote count?

  

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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #32 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:15pm
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junglejim wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 12:16pm:

The problem with waiting for the steel mills to open is that tariffs probably won't help.  The days of the  Andrew Carnegie monopoly is gone.  The world does not even use steel as much as it did in the early 20th century.  And now countries that did not develop steel are.  The tariff won't help much.
  

Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 1:53pm:
The average person is going to starve and die.

Thus has it always been with humanity, before the advent of the Great Society.

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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #33 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:34pm
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:24pm:
Limey,

Has there been much conjecture in Olde Blighty that Russian hackers might have altered the Brexit vote count?



Lots.
  

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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #34 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
The problem with waiting for the steel mills to open is that tariffs probably won't help.  The days of the  Andrew Carnegie monopoly is gone.  The world does not even use steel as much as it did in the early 20th century.  And now countries that did not develop steel are.  The tariff won't help much.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_iron_and_steel_industry_in_the_Unit...
  

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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #35 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:40pm
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Queshank wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:42pm:
So is there absolutely no benefit to local steel markets in increased competitiveness, and no increase in employment and good paying blue collar jobs in the steel industry? That can't be quantified?

Protectionist tariffs haven't proven to provide either. And actually, the U.S. steel industry increased production last year (without protectionism). 

Quote:
How do you quantify the need for a nation to have its own steel production to create its own tanks, fighter jets and ships?  What's the value on that?
 
Which we can do. Protectionist tariffs aren't going change this one way or another.

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Do we rely on China for that?

We don't actually. 

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This started out as a national security recommendation from the Commerce Department.

And the DOD (which handles national security) pushed back on that. The national security claim was bs.

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That's actually why I've argued myself against using our oil reserves here in the states.  When the day comes, we wanna be the last ones with jet fuel and diesel for our tanks.

We have plenty of capacity to produce steel for that purpose should the need arise. 

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And it actually seems to be arguing against Donald Trump's "Very protectionist" claim.

Yeah, because the EU isn't anymore protectionist than the U.S., Japan, Canada, etc., et al. 
  
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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #36 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 2:02am
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:04pm:
No, my protest is that you falsely claimed the following:

"And honestly, tariffs are a traditionally pro Democrat stance."

I pointed out where this is not the case. You dismissed that as historical... excuse me, but what does "traditionally" mean on  your planet?


No my friend.  Tariffs and protectionist trade policies are a traditionally pro Democratic stance. Bernie was an old school Democrat from an age before Bill Clinton started turning the Democrats into Republican Lites.

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Dick Gebhart resigned from Congess in 2005, and has been a lobbyist for US Steel since then. Small wonder if he supports Trump's steel tariffs (although I could not find any statements from him to that effect), and he most certainly doesn't represent the Democratic Party or the majority of Democrats.


I have no idea if Gephardt supports Trump's tariffs. I've said nothing about it.  Perhaps if you'd checked those scary Internet links in my initial post you'd have seen even more clearly what I said pretty damn clearly:

Quote:
When Bush implemented em in the early '00s, his Democratic opposition in the form of Dick Gephardt didn't scream about how they were going to start a trade war and crash the world's economies ... he instead bellyached that the tariffs weren't steep enough.


Shh shh shh!  Calm down.  Easy fella.  There's nothing to be afraid of.  That scary Internet link I shared about Dick Gephardt is a link to the New York Times.  It's okay.  It's not going to hurt you.  I promise.  But your suspicion that the New York Times might be fake news ... maybe not completely without merit I suppose so I won't be too critical of your concerns.

But let me help you Ulysses.  That is after all, my mission statement.  I'm here to help!  Take a breath, slow down and read what I said quoted above again.  In "the early '00s", Dick Gephardt was the House Minority Leader.  You know ... the guy in charge of the Democrats.  And he was the Majority Leader for years before that.  Hell in 2000 he was publicly announced as one of the people on a very short list as a vice presidential candidate.  I guess we can entertain the notion he didn't speak for Democrats.  I guess...

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Good Grief! You really have a knack for twisting other people's words and assuming they said stuff they didn't say! You are so full of yourself. I've already explained my first problem with your diatribe. I never said Democrats are not union friendly. I'm only saying that Republicans also court the union vote when it serves their political agenda.


Ah.  So what you really mean is the Democrats use unions when it suits their purposes, just like the Republicans.

Yeah, of course I can do that "twist other people's words" shit liberals do all the time man.  I've been a liberal a long time.  "Do you know what you're saying when you say that????"

But it's good we're on the same page here now. 

Democrats abandoned unions and blue collar workers because they didn't think they'd need them politically and that's how we got Trump. 

We're making progress bud!  We're making progress.  Give us a few more pages of discussion and we might have a winning Democratic platform.  Cuz I hate to be the one to break this news to you Ulysses ... but ... they're still doing it!  They still think they don't need them!  Can you believe that shit?  LOL 

Except the Democrats in Trump districts.  Even in Pennsylvania, Democratic heartthrob Conor Lamb is fully "woke" on this subject and said:

"For too long, China has been making cheap steel and they've been flooding the market with it. It's not fair and it's not right,” Lamb said during a debate with Saccone last week, calling Trump’s plan long overdue....Lamb, who enjoys union support then accused Saccone of supporting construction projects that use foreign steel.

Is he allowed to speak for Democrats?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #37 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 2:15am
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:04pm:
There's little to nothing of value in your OP that I could take away.


Aw, man.  That's too bad.  I'm sorry to disappoint.

Maybe you should have read it?  Your responses don't seem to indicate you have.

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Oh, you claim that was the point of your OP? It would appear your point is that Democrats "shit chickens" about anything Trump proposes. Which, since you claim some Dems support Trump's tariffs, means you have contradicted yourself. Bigly. That's a nice way of putting it. Lying like a rug is another way.


Er.  Sorry to interrupt your chicken shitting, but ...  here's what I said in my OP...

Queshank wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:09am:
But that's all besides the point.  I'm only sharing that because I think it's hilarious that the kneejerk reaction of Democrats is to oppose because it's Trump and it's just one more thing that Democrats have to fight with each other about.


Thanks for the kneejerk reactions man.  You have no idea how much enjoyment I get out of it.  So hey, at least if my OP wasn't for your edification ... I've got more data for the hopper yanowutimean?

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As for tariffs being bad... let's go back again to Smooth Hawley. In the 1920's, the international community got together and agreed to a multinational agreement to do away with tariffs. The Republican Congress in the USA refused to ratify the agreement. Instead, they came up with broad tariffs on most all imports. Europe and other regions had no choice but to respond in kind. When FDR kicked Hoover in the ass, and got a Dem majority, he was able to slowly roll back the counter-productive Smoot-Hawley tariff structure. But the other nations clung to theirs, perhaps because once bit twice shy.


Oh by all means let's go back to beating that dead horse Smoot Hawley.

What's your point?  That the Republicans passed a tariff?

Hey lookit my OP again!  I reference two other Republican presidents passing tariffs ... Bush 2.0 and Trump.

But thanks for the news!

Would it matter to you that ... in fact, few economists think the Smoot-Hawley tariff (as it is most often known) was one of the principal causes of the Depression. Worse mistakes were made, largely out of a misplaced faith in the gold standard and balanced budgets. America's tariffs were already high, and some other countries were already increasing their own.

Does it? 

(The link's to "The Economist."  It should be alright.  Might wanna run a virus scan when you're done tho?  Internet! Can't be too safe.)

But y'see you inadvertently emphasize exactly one of the points I'm making.  There are far too many variables to definitively pinpoint problems in the economy.  The left and the right keep on trying to do it and for some reason the left and the right keep on disagreeing about what causes what.  I suppose we can just assume one side is stacked with all the smart people and the other side is all a bunch of morons.  That's a tribalism approved method after all.

Quote:
Now if you want to press the point that tariffs are bad, you can't have a selective memory and dismiss past Republican tariff disasters while attacking Dems who express "mild support" for Trump's steel tariffs.


Damn you get all kinds of butthurt at criticism of Democrats don't you? 

I'm not dismissing anything Ulysses.  That would be you.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #38 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 2:17am
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
Try checking your facts for a change. Most steel imported into the USA is from Canada. China is way down the list (like tenth):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-factbox/factbox-top-steel-exporters...


*SIGH*


Say, yeah ... if you can tie that into anything I said that'd be great.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: How much damage will tariffs really do?
Reply #39 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 2:34am
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Limey. wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:31pm:
I can’t comment on why various ignorant, stupid people vote in America.

It’s not up for debate why Brexit happened.

It’s because of ignorant, stupid people voting.


That’s not me being any sort of lefty cry baby. It’s straightforwardly what happened.

Similarities with Trump (lol ‘Mr. President-what an honour!!!’ after every classroom fart)  are obvious.

Don’t care. My clear statement that Brexit was a foolish vote by xenophobic idiots stands.


I don’t want to help you in your Democrats are Doomed project here, it’s not similar enough. Brexit wasn’t a left/right issue, it was a stupid/clever and a decent/nasty one.


The Left here didn’t lose coherence over it; no more than did the Right.


All that happened was a light was shone on the unpleasant fact that 33% of my countrymen are crappity smacking nasty bitches and some of our politicians put personal position over the nation’s best interest.


We knew that. But we are now paying for this redundant lesson.


Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it.  And that sure does look like the Democratic/Leftist take here in the US on why Trump won doesn't it?  It's almost creepy. 

Was racism really the only angle?  I mean I remember all kinds of them.  There was the free trade concern which I've already mentioned I'd heard that argument.  There was the concerns about unchecked borders and incidents like the Rotherham sexual exploitation scandal (Is it really racism that Rotherham voted 68% to control their borders?)  There were concerns that the EU was just the latest in a long line of people trying to "enslave" Europe ala' Napoleon and Hitler.  There were cultural clashes among the people least able to afford the problems ... (#2 indicator of a leave voter is after all individual/regional poverty, after #1 age/education)

Do you think cultural clashes are racism?  Is that how we define racism now?  Is race inexorably linked with culture? 

Why do you say only 33% tho?  Brexit won with 51% of the vote.  And they had 65% turnout.  That's pretty darn good for 21st century voter turnout in the UK. 

Why do you assume the people who didn't give enough of a shit to turn up to vote would have voted Remain?  Isn't it more accurate to say 69%?  Why do the 17 million who didn't care to vote get a free pass?  What gives you as a Remainer the right to claim them as your own?

Someday maybe we can get into it and you can educate me more.  My joke about being an American who knows all was just that.  A joke.  But until that time, the similarities to my crusade against arrogant, condescending, elitist Democrats keep piling up from where I sit Limey.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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