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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit? (Read 2,323 times)
EF
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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #10 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 1:20pm
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http://www.wired.co.uk/article/hawking-god

That's a link to the article below, but the article is so short I just copied and pasted it.

Internationally famous physicist Stephen Hawking has gone back on his previous beliefs about the creation of the Universe, stating in a forthcoming book that physics, not God, made the Big Bang.

Hawking has long held the position that while the Universe is governed by the laws of science, those laws were created by God. He said in 2008 at an event with the Pope, "The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."

But in his new book, The Grand Design, Hawking states that new theories show that a creator is "not necessary". A section printed in The Times says: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

Instead, Hawking puts his faith into a form of string theory called M-theory, which hopes to present a unified theory in 11 dimensions that can account for every type of physical behaviour. However, theorist Edward Witten believes that a formulation of M-theory will require an entirely new mathematical language to be developed.

Hawking says that the first blow to his beliefs came in 1992, when a planet was found orbiting a star that wasn't our Sun: "That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass -- far less remarkable, and far less compelling as evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings."

end of article

I freely admit Stephen Hawking was a smart guy.  But he makes a statement in the last paragraph that is patently false.  God did not "carefully design Earth just to please us human beings" and I know of no credible theologian who asserts that. 

And I also can't follow his line of reasoning when he infers "coincidences of our planetary conditions" is evidence against a Creator.  Why would that be a logical inference?

And if there is nothing, truly nothing, how can there be any gravity?  Isn't gravity a function of mass?  How could nothing have any mass?
  

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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #11 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 4:33pm
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EF wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 1:07pm:
And a brick wall doesn't require a mason to exist, either.



Sounds like a restatement of the Watchmaker's Analogy (should actually be called the Watchmaker's fallacy). 

I suppose that if one strictly adheres to Paley's discovery of a single 'watch' lying on  the ground with no other examples then it could be said that the existence of the single watch suggests a watchmaker.

But nature doesn't work that way.

Let's say Paley took the watch he'd found home and placed it on the mantle.  He looks at the watch the next day and finds that there are 2 small gears nestled under the edge of the watch.  Excited, Paley returns to the site where he found the watch and searches the area.  To his astonishment he finds another watch and then another.  He finds individual gears and bits that have joined to form balance wheels or arbors.

At which point Paley rightfully concludes that his watch evolved from simpler watch-like mechanisms.

That's the way nature works..  Simple systems make up more complex systems and so on and so on.

The Watchmaker's Fallacy, as all claims of irreducible complexity are clearly self-refuting arguments.

  

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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #12 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 6:12pm
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Fiddler wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 4:33pm:
Sounds like a restatement of the Watchmaker's Analogy (should actually be called the Watchmaker's fallacy). 

I suppose that if one strictly adheres to Paley's discovery of a single 'watch' lying on  the ground with no other examples then it could be said that the existence of the single watch suggests a watchmaker.

But nature doesn't work that way.

Let's say Paley took the watch he'd found home and placed it on the mantle.  He looks at the watch the next day and finds that there are 2 small gears nestled under the edge of the watch.  Excited, Paley returns to the site where he found the watch and searches the area.  To his astonishment he finds another watch and then another.  He finds individual gears and bits that have joined to form balance wheels or arbors.

At which point Paley rightfully concludes that his watch evolved from simpler watch-like mechanisms.

That's the way nature works..  Simple systems make up more complex systems and so on and so on.

The Watchmaker's Fallacy, as all claims of irreducible complexity are clearly self-refuting arguments.



If that's the best argument you have against this alleged "fallacy," I'll assume I've won the argument.
  

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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #13 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 7:47pm
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Plenty of Christians accept evolution.  As I have repeatedly said, the local archdiocese teaches evolution in its Catholic high schools' biology classes.  They teach it poorly, but so does everyone else.

It's important to note that Darwin's book is over 100 years old and is not the last word in biology.  The great strength of science is that it is not a search for Truth, but a process of developing ever-better models of the operation of the natural world.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #14 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 7:50pm
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EF wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 12:59pm:
We already have.

And anything that's a miracle is, by definition, beyond our ability to explain.  Not just many of them, but all of them.


So, electrons were miracles until 1897?  That makes no sense.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #15 - Apr 3rd, 2018 at 8:44pm
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Running Deer wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 7:50pm:
So, electrons were miracles until 1897?  That makes no sense.


non sequitur. 

I don't think anybody knew there were such things as electrons until 1897.   I think that's when they were "discovered."

It's your reasoning and response that makes no sense.
  

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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #16 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 6:03am
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 10:54am:
We will have to agree to disagree, there are many miracles that go well beyond our true comprehension of God that no man can explain.



Like what?

Millions dying/suffering in Hurricanes, Earth quakes and volcanic eruptions? Roll Eyes Huh
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
noun
a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #17 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 6:06am
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 11:09am:
What exactly are you looking for?



The truth Wink
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
noun
a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #18 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 8:43am
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EF wrote on Apr 3rd, 2018 at 6:12pm:
I'll assume I've won the argument.



As a Creationist would..
  

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Re: Will Christians Give Darwin Any Credit?
Reply #19 - Apr 4th, 2018 at 9:04am
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Luther wrote on Apr 4th, 2018 at 6:03am:
Like what?

Millions dying/suffering in Hurricanes, Earth quakes and volcanic eruptions? Roll Eyes Huh

Both saved and the unsaved suffer because of sin, it rains on both the just and unjust.  Did Jesus not suffered horribly at our hands?  Was his flesh not ripped off of his back by the lashes, was not his head pierced by the thorns we pressed on his head?  Was his death he suffered the most excruciating one could suffer on our behalf?  It was our darkest hour as man’s true evil was revealed and God’s grace and mercy was granted to sinners like you and me.  On the Christian site is a twenty minute video of the historians testimony outside of scripture of that time period.  They say the closer to the event the testimony the more accurate the history is.  We can deny that it happened, but those who witnessed it are a testimony to that day.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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