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Running Deer
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ICR's Garbage Science
Apr 25th, 2018 at 8:06pm
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http://www.icr.org/article/mathematical-impossibility-evolution

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According to the most-widely accepted theory of evolution today, the sole mechanism for producing evolution is that of random mutation combined with natural selection.


This is wrong.  Scientists do not say that random mutation is the sole mechanism for evolution.  Since all the math is based on this false statement, the math is useless.

Quote:
Since random changes in ordered systems almost always will decrease the amount of order in those systems, nearly all mutations are harmful to the organisms which experience them.


Animals are chaotic systems, not ordered.

Quote:
No one has ever actually observed a genuine mutation occurring in the natural environment which was beneficial (that is, adding useful genetic information to an existing genetic code), and therefore, retained by the selection process.


This is definitely untrue.  I've posted the link to Observed Instances of Speciation before, and here it is again.

We've also recently witnessed the emergence of a new crayfish species: the marbled crayfish.  The NY Times and many other outlets recently reported on this crayfish that, through mutation, gave up sexual reproduction for asexual reproduction.

Quote:
"The earth is an open system, so the second law doesn't apply"


The Second Law applies, but not in the way that creationists think.  The Second Law says that entropy is always increasing in a closed system.  Obviously, the Earth is not a closed system, since it is continuously bombarded by the energy of the Sun.  The entropy of Earth decreases because the entropy of the Sun increases.  This, of course, is why the Sun will eventually die, and the Earth along with it.

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In the real world of scientific observation, as opposed to metaphysical speculation, however, no more complex system can ever "evolve" out of a less complex system...


He's never seen a snowflake? A hurricane?
  

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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #1 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 5:01am
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Stop being so cruel.

They already have a hard time believing. You’re making even more difficult.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #2 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 6:40am
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How is the math useless?  Show us a real evolutionary process that puts this argument to rest and PLEASE do not use adaptation as your point (ie. crayfish to crayfish is not an evolutionary process but adaptation).  All creation adapts to it's surroundings or they will die.  I am looking for how one specific species can evolve from another species.  Fish to a walking mammal for instance or more specifically a bird to, say a cat as just an example.  That is what evolution is stating.  Man from ape and yet our DNA is not strong enough to support that we came from apes.  Do me a favor and summarize in your own words what your report is stating that we can observe this.  What species shows conclusively that evolution is in fact science not theory.  I did exactly that after posting that I simply can not see how the math can show probability that such an evolutionary process is capable of sustaining life of a specific new species.  More specifically, a fish to an upright mammal as an example.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2018 at 6:46am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #3 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 7:05am
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And if you do not believe in Darwin's evolutionary process, what specifically do you believe in?  I do not even have an idea exactly who you draw your theories from if not the originator of evolution.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #4 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 8:11pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 6:40am:
How is the math useless?


Because if your initial assumptions are wrong, the math based on those initial assumptions can't ever be right.  What are the odds that the New Jersey Devils win the Super Bowl?  None, because the Devils are a hockey team.  However good your math skills are, if you assume the Devils are a football team, your math will always be wrong.

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Show us a real evolutionary process that puts this argument to rest and PLEASE do not use adaptation as your point (ie. crayfish to crayfish is not an evolutionary process but adaptation).


Evolution is nothing but adaptation.  Sometimes, just one adaptation creates a new species, like the crayfish who evolved asexual reproduction a few years ago.  Usually it takes a long series of adaptations.  That's it; that's all there is.
Quote:
Fish to a walking mammal for instance or more specifically a bird to, say a cat as just an example.


You have been told before, many many many times, that this does not happen and that no claims that it does.  I have told you for years, as have others.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #5 - Apr 26th, 2018 at 9:18pm
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Running Deer wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 8:11pm:
Because if your initial assumptions are wrong, the math based on those initial assumptions can't ever be right.  What are the odds that the New Jersey Devils win the Super Bowl?  None, because the Devils are a hockey team.  However good your math skills are, if you assume the Devils are a football team, your math will always be wrong.


Evolution is nothing but adaptation.  Sometimes, just one adaptation creates a new species, like the crayfish who evolved asexual reproduction a few years ago.  Usually it takes a long series of adaptations.  That's it; that's all there is.

You have been told before, many many many times, that this does not happen and that no claims that it does.  I have told you for years, as have others.

Adaptation is not the same as evolution and this is where you and I will never agree on.  Why, because it is far easier to prove adaptation but impossible to prove evolution of a new species of a totally different like (ie. rat to dog).  Excuse me, you don't get to tell me anything, and I had to laugh at this remark because it's tone leads one to think you have the final word.  You do not because you can not answer my questions sufficiently to prove your point.  Maybe your bar is set to a far lower standard then mine when it comes to evolution.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #6 - Apr 27th, 2018 at 10:14am
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 26th, 2018 at 9:18pm:
Adaptation is not the same as evolution and this is where you and I will never agree on.  Why, because it is far easier to prove adaptation but impossible to prove evolution of a new species of a totally different like (ie. rat to dog).  Excuse me, you don't get to tell me anything, and I had to laugh at this remark because it's tone leads one to think you have the final word.  You do not because you can not answer my questions sufficiently to prove your point.  Maybe your bar is set to a far lower standard then mine when it comes to evolution.


So you do understand what evolution is, you do accept it as fact.

Good.


The thing you don’t believe in it’s ok to disbelieve, because it isn’t a real thing.

We are getting somewhere.


Now read those links I posted again- nobody, as RD says, claims that there’s any crossing from one branch to another. Different species will have common ancestors if you can go back far enough (you, as a fish head, will be pleased to have a fish-like thing as great great grandma  Cheesy). That’s not a rat becoming a hyena. But rats and hyenas will certainly share ancestors.


I’m genuinely pleased to have seen your post here, I was beginning to think you were going mad.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #7 - Apr 27th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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Limey. wrote on Apr 27th, 2018 at 10:14am:
So you do understand what evolution is, you do accept it as fact.

Good.


The thing you don’t believe in it’s ok to disbelieve, because it isn’t a real thing.

We are getting somewhere.


Now read those links I posted again- nobody, as RD says, claims that there’s any crossing from one branch to another. Different species will have common ancestors if you can go back far enough (you, as a fish head, will be pleased to have a fish-like thing as great great grandma  Cheesy). That’s not a rat becoming a hyena. But rats and hyenas will certainly share ancestors.


I’m genuinely pleased to have seen your post here, I was beginning to think you were going mad.

In summary, as I stated earlier on another thread, my mind has not changed.  I simply can find no evidence nor is it feasible that all of life evolved accidently to create a perfect balance to sustain all of life without intelligent design.  Not much more to argue.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #8 - Apr 27th, 2018 at 3:33pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 27th, 2018 at 12:13pm:
Not much more to argue.



You're right.  There really is no argument.  But it is interesting that you ask for evidence for Evolution yet accept the supernatural without a shred of evidence.

Contemporary biology is inseparable from Evolution.



  
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Re: ICR's Garbage Science
Reply #9 - Apr 27th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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Semi-Omnipotent wrote on Apr 27th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
You're right.  There really is no argument.  But it is interesting that you ask for evidence for Evolution yet accept the supernatural without a shred of evidence.

Contemporary biology is inseparable from Evolution.




The evidence surrounds you but you refuse to acknowledge it.  Have had this discussion over and over.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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