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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Monday Our Embassy Opens In Jerusalem (Read 1,480 times)
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Re: Monday Our Embassy Opens In Jerusalem
Reply #120 - May 15th, 2018 at 12:24pm
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Queshank wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:07pm:
You really cannot view Israel without realizing how the trauma of the holocaust impacted every one of the early leaders and how it shaped their worldview and the decisions they made.

Reading Rise and Kill First right now. It's about Israel's targeted assassination program, and the Holocaust certainly had an impact on that program (generally and specifically in hunting down Nazis and later German scientists in Egypt). 

What I found interesting in the early chapters is that some of the Palestinian Jews (those who immigrated to the mandate prior to WW2) weren't very sympathetic of European Jews (felt they should've fought back).

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It's odd how people can be so sympathetic to the legacy of slavery here in the United States and how it has impacted our black neighbors, yet the same people completely ignore the impact the holocaust had on the people of Israel.

We're forgetting about the Holocaust (Source).

Of course, there's understanding its impact, and there's also not using it as a justification for all of Israel's behavior either (not that I think you're doing that, but it does happen).
  
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Re: Monday Our Embassy Opens In Jerusalem
Reply #121 - May 15th, 2018 at 1:33pm
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Demos wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:24pm:
Reading Rise and Kill First right now. It's about Israel's targeted assassination program, and the Holocaust certainly had an impact on that program (generally and specifically in hunting down Nazis and later German scientists in Egypt). 

What I found interesting in the early chapters is that some of the Palestinian Jews (those who immigrated to the mandate prior to WW2) weren't very sympathetic of European Jews (felt they should've fought back).


I've heard that before.  The entire formation of Israel was such a bizarre situation on the ground.  Palestinians who fled in protest and refused to accept the new reality have been the primary reason for the problems between Israel and the Palestinians.  The first prime minister of Israel was actually quite sympathetic to the Palestinians and envisioned a future where the Arabs in the area would have equal rights and be full citizens of Israel.  He even expected at some point in the future a Palestinian would be elected to the presidency.

It's tough to say whether the problems are the Israeli's or the Palestinian's fault.

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We're forgetting about the Holocaust (Source).


That's just mind boggling.  I don't even know how that's possible.  It's not like I went out of my way to learn about the holocaust ... it was just part of education and growing up in America.  I've made sure my kids know about it.  Maybe not the nitty gritty but even when they were young I picked movies like Schindler's List for our movie nights and had long conversations about the holocaust with them.  My kids are two millenials who aren't ignorant about the holocaust that's for sure.

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Of course, there's understanding its impact, and there's also not using it as a justification for all of Israel's behavior either (not that I think you're doing that, but it does happen).


Absolutely! 

But I pose this question as someone who grew up in, and has lived in South Dakota most of his life ... watching the racism and the plight of Native Americans first hand.  As someone who has gone out of his way to learn as much as possible about the horrible way we Americans have treated the native population ....

Is there some point when sympathy runs out for a conquered people and it's time to assimilate or shut up? 

I don't know.  I don't want to seem insensitive by that but I can't help but see the parallels between the native population in my home state and the Palestinians in Israel.  At some point shouldn't people have to accept they've lost?  There's no future for their protest anymore?  It seems like we prolong the pain, the misery and the injustice by entertaining the futile dreams of a conquered people.

Maybe not.  Maybe that's the 'old way.' (The old way having been ten thousand years of human history and the 'new way' being the last 20 years.)  But I am really beginning to question whether it's valid to carry on with the generational pain of yesteryear.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: Monday Our Embassy Opens In Jerusalem
Reply #122 - May 15th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Queshank wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
It's tough to say whether the problems are the Israeli's or the Palestinian's fault.

This isn't an issue I've spent much time studying, and I don't have strong opinions about the Israelis or the Palestinians. As an uninterested observer, I'd say there's probably enough blame to go around for everyone.

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That's just mind boggling.

It really is.  

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Is there some point when sympathy runs out for a conquered people and it's time to assimilate or shut up?

Again, this isn't something I have really studied much so don't know/understand all the ins and outs of what is really a very complex issues. 
  
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Re: Monday Our Embassy Opens In Jerusalem
Reply #123 - May 16th, 2018 at 12:07pm
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Demos wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 3:39pm:
This isn't an issue I've spent much time studying, and I don't have strong opinions about the Israelis or the Palestinians. As an uninterested observer, I'd say there's probably enough blame to go around for everyone.

It really is.  

Again, this isn't something I have really studied much so don't know/understand all the ins and outs of what is really a very complex issues. 


I dunno if you really need to know the details of these complex issues.  And I really don't think they're all that complicated, it's just a solution that defies ten thousand years of human history that's complicated. 

The Israeli's moved in with the backing of the international community.  (Yes I'm aware there were Jews in Palestine before the 40s.)  The Palestinians moved out in protest (and in some cases in fear.)  They claim the Israeli's stole their land.  Now they want their land back.  The Israeli's say crappity smack you.   Simple. 

The white people moved in.  They forced the native populations to move west.  They kept forcing the native populations to move west.  They violated treaty after treaty they made with the native population.  They repeated that cycle for a hundred years.  Steal land.  Fight about it.  Sign a treaty.  Break treaty.  Steal land.  Fight about it.  Sign a treaty.  Rinse repeat.  Finally the whites decided to simply pen them into shitty land no whites wanted.  We call them reservations but they were and still are in many cases prison camps.  The whole time the native population has been saying they want their land back.  The whole time the white population has been saying crappity smack you.  Simple.

It only gets complicated when we try to create a new way of dealing with a conquered people.  And make no mistake about it, these are both conquered peoples. 

We have ten thousand years of history resolving issues with conquered peoples to use as a template.  I think what we're learning here is how bad things work out for the conquered when we try to carve out exceptions to the laws of nature, which humans are as bound to as any other species.

It's not working out for the native population for them to be independent to the rest of the nation.  It's not working out for the Palestinians to be independent from the rest of Israel.

Maybe it's time to simply stop entertaining the fantasies of the conquered?  For the good of the conquered?  That's the overall concept I'm addressing.  I think an understanding of human history is more beneficial than a deep understanding of these issues.

And a waiver ... I'm only bringing it up for conversation purposes.  I'm not advocating.  But I will admit that after 30 years of trying to figure these issues out myself, and 30 years of periodically examining these issues ... I'm starting to lean in that direction.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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