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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp (Read 636 times)
patrick2
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Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm
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If I have it right, libertarians want the free movement of labor, no borders.  In the case of the US, they appear unable to realize, or ignore, that such immigration would take place in a democratic system during an era of strong identity politics relentlessly reinforced by the left wing.  Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.)  This translates to strong support by majorities of such groups for the statist party.  The democrats lost the last election, but it's doubtful they will make the same mistakes as in 2016 again: particularly nominating a smug, self-entitled, complacent, out of touch candidate like Hillary.

In this context, demography is destiny, and the new democrat voters continue to roll in with America's mass legal and illegal immigration.  So in supporting that, libertarians make it ever-more unlikely that any significant part of their vision of society (EXCEPT of course the immigration) will ever be effected.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #1 - May 13th, 2018 at 4:01pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
If I have it right, libertarians want the free movement of labor, no borders.


Many libertarians in the tradition of Hans Hoppe would disagree and support closed borders but I don't really consider that the majority libertarian position.

It certainly is not a consistent position.

You're right on the money, so far.
Quote:
In the case of the US, they appear unable to realize, or ignore, that such immigration would take place in a democratic system during an era of strong identity politics relentlessly reinforced by the left wing.  Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.)  This translates to strong support by majorities of such groups for the statist party.  The democrats lost the last election, but it's doubtful they will make the same mistakes as in 2016 again: particularly nominating a smug, self-entitled, complacent, out of touch candidate like Hillary.


Every policy has costs and benefits. Every policy has implications for individual liberty.

Libertarians believe that the free movement of people is good for the economy. When you consider the birth rate among our native born population, we need immigrants to keep our population growing so that our economy grows.

We don't want to turn into Japan, for example.

There is also the concerns surrounding the problems immigration restrictions pose for individual liberty. A government strong enough to control immigration has to know who is hiring who and also be able to enforce immigration law. That means taxes and men with guns.

Libertarians would restrict government involvement to instances where someone has their rights violated. We do not care to police who you hire or rent a room to.

We believe in the freedom of contract.

No victim - no crime is the mantra.

Libertarians also understand that diversity tends to undermine social support for redistributive programs because in group/ out group dynamics make people less charitable when they think the "others" are benefiting. This realization undermines the narrative that immigration supports welfare politics. It actually undermines it.

I would add conservative voters tend to resist cuts to their medicare and social security.

There is a fatal conceit in your argument. I have hi-lighted it above. There is no non-statist party. Ensuring Republican control of the country is not my goal. There is no victory there for me.

So the trade off you want libertarians to make- allowing more government intrusion and control over our lives- is not something I am willing to accept in order to protect GOP election chances.

I just don't care that much about the GOP.

And I do care about having a healthy and growing economy. So I support immigration.

Quote:
In this context, demography is destiny, and the new democrat voters continue to roll in with America's mass legal and illegal immigration. 


"Demography is destiny" in only one respect; we will never have a healthy economy with a shrinking or stagnant population.

The partisan concerns you have are antiquated. Politics as we know it is probably on it's last legs.

Quote:
So in supporting that, libertarians make it ever-more unlikely that any significant part of their vision of society (EXCEPT of course the immigration) will ever be effected.

By promoting policies that support economic growth we get closer to our vision of the ideal society than we would through shutting down borders and policing who people hire.

If I were to see a paradox in this discussion, it would be on the part of those who say they support small government and free markets yet want to grow the role of government in society and give it the power to police every wage contract and rental agreement in the nation, while erecting a giant border maintained by the military.
« Last Edit: May 13th, 2018 at 4:37pm by TowardLiberty »  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #2 - May 13th, 2018 at 4:54pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.) 

Identity and solidarity are felt pretty strongly by straight white males no less than other people. Your approach to politics is emblematic of that.

The left hardly has a monopoly on identity politics.
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #3 - May 13th, 2018 at 9:33pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 4:01pm:


Every policy has costs and benefits. Every policy has implications for individual liberty.


That's fine as long as every policy proceeds from a self-consistent theory.

Quote:
Libertarians believe that the free movement of people is good for the economy. When you consider the birth rate among our native born population, we need immigrants to keep our population growing so that our economy grows.

We don't want to turn into Japan, for example.


I'm not interested in what libertarians believe, only what they can prove.  I don't subscribe to the ponzi scheme theory of an ever growing population to maintain growth. Don't forget about the robot take over of manual work, or with AI, even white collar work.  Thus importing millions of more people may just be importing millions of more welfare clients.

Quote:
There is also the concerns surrounding the problems immigration restrictions pose for individual liberty. A government strong enough to control immigration has to know who is hiring who and also be able to enforce immigration law. That means taxes and men with guns.


Bank robbings and murders pose the same need for taxes and men with guns.  That enforcement of laws requires these things is a given for all laws.  The advisability of a law must stand or fall on something else, otherwise one could say get rid of the laws against bank robbing.

Quote:
Libertarians would restrict government involvement to instances where someone has their rights violated. We do not care to police who you hire or rent a room to.

We believe in the freedom of contract.

No victim - no crime is the mantra.


Don't know what to make of that, because I'm not up to date on libertarian conception of rights.

Quote:
Libertarians also understand that diversity tends to undermine social support for redistributive programs because in group/ out group dynamics make people less charitable when they think the "others" are benefiting. This realization undermines the narrative that immigration supports welfare politics. It actually undermines it.


Lots of third world immigration in the last 50 years, and I don't see any "undermining".  But is that the argument for immigration - it doesn't undermine our welfare system??  Along with the ponzi growth scheme??  Sounds weak.

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I would add conservative voters tend to resist cuts to their medicare and social security.

There is a fatal conceit in your argument. I have hi-lighted it above. There is no non-statist party. Ensuring Republican control of the country is not my goal. There is no victory there for me.



There is a vast difference between the two parties.  Conservatives aren't libertarians, and don't claim to be, but they sure as hell aren't democrats, who seem to be taking an ever-more hard left edge.

Quote:
So the trade off you want libertarians to make- allowing more government intrusion and control over our lives- is not something I am willing to accept in order to protect GOP election chances.


You don't want me to intrude on you when you hire illegal aliens, but it's OK if the government intrudes on my paycheck to pay their welfare bills when you let them go or prison costs if they break the law.

Quote:
I just don't care that much about the GOP.

And I do care about having a healthy and growing economy. So I support immigration.


That's one of your fictions.

Quote:
"Demography is destiny" in only one respect; we will never have a healthy economy with a shrinking or stagnant population.


As I say, that's your well-worn fiction, and (I get deja vu every time I talk with you) you are focused on only the economics, and ignore the profound social impacts.  The healthy economy you talk about is at best for the owners of unskilled labor-intensive industries.  That and future democrat votes is all that's driving the invasion.

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The partisan concerns you have are antiquated. Politics as we know it is probably on it's last legs.


Uh, thank you for the meaningless snotty aside.

  
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patrick2
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #4 - May 13th, 2018 at 9:36pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 4:54pm:
Identity and solidarity are felt pretty strongly by straight white males no less than other people. Your approach to politics is emblematic of that.

The left hardly has a monopoly on identity politics.


Absolute, total, 112% nonsense.  The democrats push the race/gender identity issue every minute of every day, and if the slightest indirect notion or mention of whites per se having rights is written or spoken, a hurricane of race cards fills the media.
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #5 - May 13th, 2018 at 11:22pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
If I have it right, libertarians want the free movement of labor, no borders.  In the case of the US, they appear unable to realize, or ignore, that such immigration would take place in a democratic system during an era of strong identity politics relentlessly reinforced by the left wing.  Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.)  This translates to strong support by majorities of such groups for the statist party. 


Sounds like they need to be convinced of the problems of statist policies.  A lot of them come from very statist countries.  Shouldn't be terribly hard.

Quote:
The democrats lost the last election, but it's doubtful they will make the same mistakes as in 2016 again: particularly nominating a smug, self-entitled, complacent, out of touch candidate like Hillary.


LOL.  I wouldn't put it past them.

Quote:
In this context, demography is destiny, and the new democrat voters continue to roll in with America's mass legal and illegal immigration.  So in supporting that, libertarians make it ever-more unlikely that any significant part of their vision of society (EXCEPT of course the immigration) will ever be effected.


That is quite an assumption.  I don't know that I support it.

But if it is true, better to fix the problem by actually fixing the problem, rather than hampering the rights of individuals.
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #6 - May 13th, 2018 at 11:28pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:36pm:
Absolute, total, 112% nonsense.  The democrats push the race/gender identity issue every minute of every day, and if the slightest indirect notion or mention of whites per se having rights is written or spoken, a hurricane of race cards fills the media.


You literally whine about this shit on almost a daily basis.  Trump's base is the straight white male that bitches just like you do.

Pot meet kettle.  Hello.

You are lazy, you are pussy, you can't compete, and you want everyone to cater to your needs.  Just like every other crappity smacking ingrate.
  

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Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #7 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:12am
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:33pm:
That's fine as long as every policy proceeds from a self-consistent theory.


Does this also apply to the small government folks who want a demilitarized zone for a southern border?
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I'm not interested in what libertarians believe, only what they can prove.  I don't subscribe to the ponzi scheme theory of an ever growing population to maintain growth.

I'm not interested in what you subscribe in, I am only interested in what you can prove.

The case linking immigration growth to economic growth is quite robust.

It hardly rests on any sort of deception or ponzi scheme. This insight goes back to Adam Smith's discussion about the division of labor and how the market is limited by the extent of the division of labor. The more we divide labor the more productive we are and the more demand there is for other goods and services.

More people = more people consuming and demanding services = more hiring, investment, specialization and production = more growth. Rinse and repeat.

That's the theory. And the data bears this out.

https://hbr.org/2017/04/why-mass-migration-is-good-for-long-term-economic-growth

https://www.epi.org/publication/bp255/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2016/10/02/3-reasons-why-immigrants-...

Quote:
Don't forget about the robot take over of manual work, or with AI, even white collar work.  Thus importing millions of more people may just be importing millions of more welfare clients.



I have never found the AI driven "end of work" narrative even half way compelling.
Quote:
Bank robbings and murders pose the same need for taxes and men with guns.  That enforcement of laws requires these things is a given for all laws.  The advisability of a law must stand or fall on something else, otherwise one could say get rid of the laws against bank robbing.


Ultimately, the law is an expression of community norms. Right now there is a struggle between tribes on what the law should be. Some believe like you and others do not.

But we all agree that murder and robbery should be illegal. There is a reason for that.

The reason is we all know in our hearts that it is wrong to rob or murder. But it is not obviously wrong to travel to a new land and trade with people there. So we will disagree on whether it is acceptable to use violence to stop people from doing so.

It is our job to evaluate the laws we live under and judge them under their own merits. They do not deserve our respect merely because they have some special status. There have been many bad laws in history. There are many bad laws now.

And its on us to try to do something about that.

Quote:
Don't know what to make of that, because I'm not up to date on libertarian conception of rights.


You haven't learned to hum the melody even after all these years?

Quote:
Lots of third world immigration in the last 50 years, and I don't see any "undermining".  But is that the argument for immigration - it doesn't undermine our welfare system??  


There are many arguments for immigration. None of these are "the" argument.  Diversity does have an undermining effect on solidarity and with it popular support for redistributive welfare programs. The science on all that is pretty straight forward. We have discussed it before.
Quote:
There is a vast difference between the two parties. 


I'm thoroughly unconvinced by that claim. From a libertarian perspective, your side is every bit the threat to social cooperation as the democrats. I hesitant to say it but often more of a threat.

Quote:
You don't want me to intrude on you when you hire illegal aliens, but it's OK if the government intrudes on my paycheck to pay their welfare bills when you let them go or prison costs if they break the law.


Immigrants pay taxes too, and often do not receive the benefits they pay into because they are not eligible.

How is that for an intrusion?

By the way, your fellow Americans also intrude on your paycheck. Indeed they are responsible for the intrusion in the first place, and consume a greater portion of your tax dollars than immigrants do.

So shouldn't you direct your ire toward the responsible party?

Why single out the group of people who are helping to prolong and sustain this ponzi scheme as we lurch into our demographic winter?

Quote:
That's one of your fictions.


That's just reality, bud. I am sure it is a hard pill to swallow but there it is.

Quote:
As I say, that's your well-worn fiction, and you are focused on only the economics, and ignore the profound social impacts.  The healthy economy you talk about is at best for the owners of unskilled labor-intensive industries.  That and future democrat votes is all that's driving the invasion.


I didn't merely focus on economics. I also mentioned concerns about growth of government and the impact on individual liberty.

You're making all these claims about the employers of unskilled labor benefiting (like a good Marxist!) without any data to support your economic argument. Meanwhile, I have binders of women studies which suggest immigration is a net benefit for people in general, regardless of who they are.
Quote:
Uh, thank you for the meaningless snotty aside.

And I'll thank you for yours.
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2018 at 12:54am by TowardLiberty »  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #8 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:15am
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:36pm:
Absolute, total, 112% nonsense. 


It's true 1000 times over and the more I watch you try to resist the point, the more convincing it appears to me.

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The democrats push the race/gender identity issue every minute of every day, and if the slightest indirect notion or mention of whites per se having rights is written or spoken, a hurricane of race cards fills the media.

Yeah, that's generally true.

But what you don't understand is you can be right about that and still be blind to your own identity politics.
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #9 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:58am
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Lomelis wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
You literally whine about this shit on almost a daily basis.  Trump's base is the straight white male that bitches just like you do.

Pot meet kettle.  Hello.

You are lazy, you are pussy, you can't compete, and you want everyone to cater to your needs.  Just like every other crappity smacking ingrate.


I really tire of your mental masturbation posts.  If you have nothing of substance to say, keep the hell out.
  
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