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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp (Read 582 times)
patrick2
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #10 - May 14th, 2018 at 2:37am
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:12am:
Does this also apply to the small government folks who want a demilitarized zone for a southern border?


Don't ask me - I'm not a small government advocate per se.  I'm a "small-as-is-sane-and-reasonable" advocate.  If threats are large, defense spending should be large. 

Quote:
The case linking immigration growth to economic growth is quite robust.  It hardly rests on any sort of deception or ponzi scheme. This insight goes back to Adam Smith's discussion about the division of labor and how the market is limited by the extent of the division of labor. The more we divide labor the more productive we are and the more demand there is for other goods and services.


How about dividing the labor among robots?  Does there come a point where division becomes inefficient?  Charlie attaches a big screw and a little screw on each part passing on the assembly line.  So lets bring in illegal Juan to attach the little screw, and Charlie can keep attaching the big screw.  Efficiency!  Growth!


Quote:
Ultimately, the law is an expression of community norms. Right now there is a struggle between tribes on what the law should be. Some believe like you and others do not.

But we all agree that murder and robbery should be illegal. There is a reason for that.

The reason is we all know in our hearts that it is wrong to rob or murder. But it is not obviously wrong to travel to a new land and trade with people there. So we will disagree on whether it is acceptable to use violence to stop people from doing so.


It's not obvious to me.  Some laws have overwhelming support, some have less support.  But the legislature takes a vote, and the majority wins.  Then the men with guns are hired and taxes paid to support law enforcement.  Again, taxes/guns can't be an argument against specific laws - all laws require them.

Quote:
It is our job to evaluate the laws we live under and judge them under their own merits. They do not deserve our respect merely because they have some special status. There have been many bad laws in history. There are many bad laws now.

And its on us to try to do something about that.


The problem is there is disagreement on what are "bad laws" - hence elections and legislatures.




Quote:
Immigrants pay taxes too, and often do not receive the benefits they pay into because they are not eligible.


They pay much less in taxes.  They pay sales tax at the store.  In california, few pay state or federal income tax, because they are paid in cash under the table.  Few pay property taxes.  They drive unregistered cars and don't pay license taxes.

Here's a 2004 report from Center for Immigration Studies:

https://cis.org/Report/High-Cost-Cheap-Labor



This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
•Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).




Quote:
Why single out the group of people who are helping to prolong and sustain this ponzi scheme as we lurch into our demographic winter?


Come to LA and tell people stuck on the san diego freeway among 100,000 cars about a "demographic winter".  Grin


  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #11 - May 14th, 2018 at 6:40am
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
If I have it right, libertarians want the free movement of labor, no borders.  In the case of the US, they appear unable to realize, or ignore, that such immigration would take place in a democratic system during an era of strong identity politics relentlessly reinforced by the left wing.  Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.)  This translates to strong support by majorities of such groups for the statist party.  The democrats lost the last election, but it's doubtful they will make the same mistakes as in 2016 again: particularly nominating a smug, self-entitled, complacent, out of touch candidate like Hillary.

In this context, demography is destiny, and the new democrat voters continue to roll in with America's mass legal and illegal immigration.  So in supporting that, libertarians make it ever-more unlikely that any significant part of their vision of society (EXCEPT of course the immigration) will ever be effected.



Yes, you're spot on. I find libertarians naive on this subject of immigration


Quote:
.  The democrats lost the last election,


In reality, not by much

It was the white dominated states like Mich, Wis and Penn that saved the day. Even then, it was supper close
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
noun
a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #12 - May 14th, 2018 at 11:36am
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 2:37am:
Don't ask me - I'm not a small government advocate per se.  I'm a "small-as-is-sane-and-reasonable" advocate.  If threats are large, defense spending should be large. 


In my view, the difference between small and big government turns more on the role of government than the amount of government spending. You can have an increase in spending for essential government services without having "big" government.

And the flip-side is also true. You can cut spending and still move toward big government if you fundamentally alter the boundary between citizen and state in a way that minimizes civil society and increases the role of the state.

Regardless of the final bill, I would argue that immigration restrictionists favor a rather stark upheaval of society, putting government in the middle of every wage contract and rental agreement. And then there is the border enforcement stuff.

Quote:
How about dividing the labor among robots?


That term doesn't really apply to robots. Adding robots would be cap ex.

Quote:
Does there come a point where division becomes inefficient?
Sure, I believe we could separate tasks with such a deep division that it would eventually become wasteful.

Luckily for us we have a market process with a profit and loss test to guide these decisions with.

Quote:
Charlie attaches a big screw and a little screw on each part passing on the assembly line.  So lets bring in illegal Juan to attach the little screw, and Charlie can keep attaching the big screw.  Efficiency!  Growth!


You make light but yes this is a major source of economic growth. It is probably the paradigmatic case.

Quote:
It's not obvious to me.


So we agree that there is nothing obviously wrong with traveling and trading with new people in new lands?

Quote:
  Some laws have overwhelming support, some have less support.  But the legislature takes a vote, and the majority wins.  Then the men with guns are hired and taxes paid to support law enforcement.  Again, taxes/guns can't be an argument against specific laws - all laws require them.


Sure they can.

Morally speaking, we shouldn't make something illegal unless we are okay with using violence to stop it. We have to be able to justify a violent response in order to advocate for a law prohibiting something.

Otherwise, we are supporting the use of violence on peaceful people. So yeah, this discussion about what kind of laws we ought to have is our primary responsibility.

For we are morally liable for what goes in our name.

Quote:
The problem is there is disagreement on what are "bad laws" - hence elections and legislatures.


Yes, and these discussions are to help us sort through all of that.

And maybe one day we will get to a place where 51% don't need to impose their will on the 49% through elections and legislatures.
Quote:
They pay much less in taxes.  They pay sales tax at the store.  In california, few pay state or federal income tax, because they are paid in cash under the table.  Few pay property taxes.  They drive unregistered cars and don't pay license taxes.

Here's a 2004 report from Center for Immigration Studies

https://cis.org/Report/High-Cost-Cheap-Labor


Well that is an interesting study and one that is worth looking at more. I have to say I am suspicious at the outset as this group has come under fire for the use of questionable methods and for associations with white supremacy. They are considered a hate group according to the SPLC. The founder of the CIS is John Tanton- a eugenics advocate.

With that said, this study could be spot on. It's no secret that welfare programs are redistributive. To me that's an argument for rethinking how we handle welfare and assistance rather than an argument for more government intrusion.

Quote:
Come to LA and tell people stuck on the san diego freeway among 100,000 cars about a "demographic winter".  Grin

No demographic winter? Did someone cancel the white genocide?
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2018 at 1:22pm by TowardLiberty »  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #13 - May 14th, 2018 at 11:48am
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They are considered a hate group according to the SPLC.


EVERYBODY who is not left wing is a hate group according SPLC.  YOU are probably one.  They have long ago lost any credibility.
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #14 - May 14th, 2018 at 11:50am
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:48am:
EVERYBODY who is not left wing is a hate group according SPLC.  YOU are probably one.  They have long ago lost any credibility.

That might be true but it doesn't change the facts about Tanton and the CIS.
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #15 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:00pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:50am:
That might be true but it doesn't change the facts about Tanton and the CIS.


Instead of repeating defamations, show how their methodology or conclusions are wrong.
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #16 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:24pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Instead of repeating defamations, show how their methodology or conclusions are wrong.


There is no defamation going on here. It is a fact that this group was founded by a white supremacist who also founded a eugenics group. It's a fact that their methodology has been questioned before.

And I am not sure the study is wrong.  I'd have to look at it deeper and that takes time and energy.

I ultimately don't question the validity of the conclusion for the purposes of this argument. My response, is okay, but that doesn't change my view of wanting to keep people free and government limited.

And I wold also note that this study does not look at the counterfactual- how much lower would tax receipts in general be without these immigrants?

Who is to say the deficit wouldn't be worse in the aggregate?

  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #17 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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Here is a thread which is almost really, really good.

I mean it. I find it fascinating.

There is an undercurrent of distrust and anomisity which is keeping it from becoming a very fruitful discussion.

I am a libertarian who straddles quite comfortably the Rockwell/Hoppe version of libertarianism alongside the more ideologically consistent libertarianism espoused by TL. I understand the position that Patrick is bringing forth in the OP, even if I do not agree with it 100%... or even 50%.

But there is something to the notion that state-managed immigration is not the same as immigration in a truly anarchic society... Private individuals would control immigration across property, and not the state.

I'm all for the free movement of the individual / labor. However, if governments (such as the German government) spend taxpayer money to bring in refugees from Syria? Is that really the free movement of labor? Or manage the immigration through public lands into the country?

So as I said, in a really unstructured and frankly embarrassingly scattered way, I sort of sit between these two ideas on immigration and shrug my shoulders like a stupid moron.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #18 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 2:37am:
This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
•Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).






Lol

Assuming this info is correct it needs a little perspective.

Illegals contributed $10.4 billion to the federal deficit...while everyone else contributed hundreds of billions more to the deficit.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #19 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:27pm
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Lomelis wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
Lol

Assuming this info is correct it needs a little perspective.

Illegals contributed $10.4 billion to the federal deficit...while everyone else contributed hundreds of billions more to the deficit.

More perspective is needed. For this only looks at the taxes they pay versus the welfare spending they consume. While there are other spill over effects.

It doesn't consider how much economic growth the immigrants generate by their presence and thus their impact on tax revenues is understated.

The full "counterfactual" picture is left unclear.
  

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