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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp (Read 420 times)
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #20 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:36pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
If I have it right, libertarians want the free movement of labor, no borders.  In the case of the US, they appear unable to realize, or ignore, that such immigration would take place in a democratic system during an era of strong identity politics relentlessly reinforced by the left wing.  Identity and some degree of "solidarity" is strongly felt by demographic groups (except of course, straight white men.)  This translates to strong support by majorities of such groups for the statist party.  The democrats lost the last election, but it's doubtful they will make the same mistakes as in 2016 again: particularly nominating a smug, self-entitled, complacent, out of touch candidate like Hillary.

In this context, demography is destiny, and the new democrat voters continue to roll in with America's mass legal and illegal immigration.  So in supporting that, libertarians make it ever-more unlikely that any significant part of their vision of society (EXCEPT of course the immigration) will ever be effected.


Perhaps the goal then should be to move away from demonizing and ostracizing immigrants and welcoming them and turning them into partners yourself.

Immigrants, especially Hispanic immigrants, have far more in common with Republicans than with Democrats.  They tend to be devoutly religious for one.  The reason they oppose Republicans and vote Democrat is because Republican rank and file turdbags spend so much time telling them how much they hate them, want to kick them out and want to deny them the opportunity of pursuing the American dream that their own immigrant ancestors capitalized on.

It's not a flaw of libertarianism.  Libertarians wouldn't be wasting their time demonizing Hispanics.  It's a flaw of conservatism you're addressing.

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #21 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:24pm:
There is no defamation going on here. It is a fact that this group was founded by a white supremacist who also founded a eugenics group.


No, that's based solely on a smear by the SPLC, a group which has evolved into an organization that exists to defame non-liberals, and has no basis in fact.
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #22 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:41pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:43pm:
Here is a thread which is almost really, really good.

I mean it. I find it fascinating.

There is an undercurrent of distrust and anomisity which is keeping it from becoming a very fruitful discussion.

I am a libertarian who straddles quite comfortably the Rockwell/Hoppe version of libertarianism alongside the more ideologically consistent libertarianism espoused by TL. I understand the position that Patrick is bringing forth in the OP, even if I do not agree with it 100%... or even 50%.

But there is something to the notion that state-managed immigration is not the same as immigration in a truly anarchic society... Private individuals would control immigration across property, and not the state.

I'm all for the free movement of the individual / labor. However, if governments (such as the German government) spend taxpayer money to bring in refugees from Syria? Is that really the free movement of labor? Or manage the immigration through public lands into the country?

So as I said, in a really unstructured and frankly embarrassingly scattered way, I sort of sit between these two ideas on immigration and shrug my shoulders like a stupid moron.

I agree this is a fun thread. It's always interesting to see how people with stark differences come to their views.

I have to agree that state sponsored immigration is not the same as the free movement of people.

Though I do imagine that in a "poly-centric" or "market anarchy" world there would still be public lands or common areas managed by some coop like arrangement.

So in that situation I could imagine a large group of people moving into a new area owing to some catastrophic breakdown somewhere else. Thats conceivable.

I wouldn't want to force association or charity with the refugees but forcing them out wouldn't sit right with me either.

I think we're both looking for that happy medium. I'm not sure what it is in the current paradigm.


  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #23 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:43pm
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Lomelis wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
Lol

Assuming this info is correct it needs a little perspective.

Illegals contributed $10.4 billion to the federal deficit...while everyone else contributed hundreds of billions more to the deficit.


Yeah, so lets import more people to get an even bigger deficit.  If you have a big credit card debt, what do you do - spend even more?  We have our own welfare cases and criminals - why import more?
  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #24 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:45pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 1:40pm:
No, that's based solely on a smear by the SPLC, a group which has evolved into an organization that exists to defame non-liberals, and has no basis in fact.

No, it's not.

Just look into John Tanton a little deeper. I don't think you will like what you find.

Quote:
“One of my prime concerns,” he wrote to a large donor, “is about the decline of folks who look like you and me.” He warned a friend that “for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that.”

Dr. Tanton acknowledged the shift from his earlier, colorblind arguments, but the “uncomfortable truth,” he wrote, was that those arguments had failed. With a million or more immigrants coming each year — perhaps a third illegally — he warned, “The end may be nearer than we think.”

He corresponded with Sam G. Dickson, a Georgia lawyer for the Ku Klux Klan, who sits on the board of The Barnes Review, a magazine that, among other things, questions “the so-called Holocaust.” Dr. Tanton promoted the work of Jared Taylor, whose magazine, American Renaissance, warned: “America is an increasingly dangerous and disagreeable place because of growing numbers of blacks and Hispanics.” (To Mr. Taylor, Dr. Tanton wrote, “You are saying a lot of things that need to be said.”)

Beyond immigration, he revived an old interest in eugenics, another field trailed by a history of racial and class prejudice.

“Do we leave it to individuals to decide that they are the intelligent ones who should have more kids?” he wrote. “And more troublesome, what about the less intelligent, who logically should have less. Who is going to break the bad news to them?”
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/us/17immig.html
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #25 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:52pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 4:01pm:
Many libertarians in the tradition of Hans Hoppe would disagree and support closed borders but I don't really consider that the majority libertarian position.

It certainly is not a consistent position.

You're right on the money, so far.

Every policy has costs and benefits. Every policy has implications for individual liberty.

Libertarians believe that the free movement of people is good for the economy. When you consider the birth rate among our native born population, we need immigrants to keep our population growing so that our economy grows.

We don't want to turn into Japan, for example.

There is also the concerns surrounding the problems immigration restrictions pose for individual liberty. A government strong enough to control immigration has to know who is hiring who and also be able to enforce immigration law. That means taxes and men with guns.

Libertarians would restrict government involvement to instances where someone has their rights violated. We do not care to police who you hire or rent a room to.

We believe in the freedom of contract.

No victim - no crime is the mantra.

Libertarians also understand that diversity tends to undermine social support for redistributive programs because in group/ out group dynamics make people less charitable when they think the "others" are benefiting. This realization undermines the narrative that immigration supports welfare politics. It actually undermines it.

I would add conservative voters tend to resist cuts to their medicare and social security.

There is a fatal conceit in your argument. I have hi-lighted it above. There is no non-statist party. Ensuring Republican control of the country is not my goal. There is no victory there for me.

So the trade off you want libertarians to make- allowing more government intrusion and control over our lives- is not something I am willing to accept in order to protect GOP election chances.

I just don't care that much about the GOP.

And I do care about having a healthy and growing economy. So I support immigration.



"Demography is destiny" in only one respect; we will never have a healthy economy with a shrinking or stagnant population.

The partisan concerns you have are antiquated. Politics as we know it is probably on it's last legs.

By promoting policies that support economic growth we get closer to our vision of the ideal society than we would through shutting down borders and policing who people hire.

If I were to see a paradox in this discussion, it would be on the part of those who say they support small government and free markets yet want to grow the role of government in society and give it the power to police every wage contract and rental agreement in the nation, while erecting a giant border maintained by the military.

- why would libertarians even have a policy on "Public" property? - libertarians dont believe in having public property - no libertarian would support open access to private property
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #26 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:54pm
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Queshank wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 1:36pm:
Perhaps the goal then should be to move away from demonizing and ostracizing immigrants and welcoming them and turning them into partners yourself.


I don't demonize or glorify anyone - I take a good look at what they are and what they do.  I, and the US, don't owe anyone a welcome, certainly not people whose first act here is break the law coming in illegally.

Quote:
Immigrants, especially Hispanic immigrants, have far more in common with Republicans than with Democrats.  They tend to be devoutly religious for one.  The reason they oppose Republicans and vote Democrat is because Republican rank and file turdbags spend so much time telling them how much they hate them, want to kick them out and want to deny them the opportunity of pursuing the American dream that their own immigrant ancestors capitalized on.


Republicans' ancestors came here LEGALLY.  And you have your cause-effect relationship ass-backwards.  Mexicans come here because they are economic refuges from failed states.  They can get jobs, but they can also cash in big time on the welfare state.   Hispanics here generally support the policies of the democrat party, which is why they vote for them.  So republicans dislike the concept of the US as a dumping ground for the poor for failed states, with all that that implies, but of course that's "demonization".

  
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #27 - May 14th, 2018 at 1:55pm
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admin wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 1:52pm:
- why would libertarians even have a policy on "Public" property? - no libertarian would support open access to private property

Libertarians don't tie their immigration policy to public property. They tie it to ideas about violence and the proper use of force.

Most libertarians would argue that those lands should be privatized, leaving their owners free to make their own "immigration" policy.

A few libertarians who follow the work of Elinor Ostrom see a possibility for a more voluntary and communal form of commons. This would be public property without the state.
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #28 - May 14th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 1:54pm:
I don't demonize or glorify anyone - I take a good look at what they are and what they do.  I, and the US, don't owe anyone a welcome, certainly not people whose first act here is break the law coming in illegally.


That's probably true patrick.  I'm not accusing you of demonization.  But you can't be so blind to the shifting winds around you as to ignore how much demonizing of illegal immigrants many on the right have done and are still doing.  Perhaps this is why their immigrant brethren feel like they're being demonized as well and vote Democratic.

Quote:
Republicans' ancestors came here LEGALLY.  And you have your cause-effect relationship ass-backwards.  Mexicans come here because they are economic refuges from failed states.  They can get jobs, but they can also cash in big time on the welfare state.   Hispanics here generally support the policies of the democrat party, which is why they vote for them.  So republicans dislike the concept of the US as a dumping ground for the poor for failed states, with all that that implies, but of course that's "demonization".


Did they tho?  Did George Washington's parents get permission from the existing state to come to the USA?  Which of our Founding Father's ancestors immigrated here "legally?"  Are you prepared to go through the first 100 years of immigration law and what constituted immigrants and what the requirements were?  How's the paperwork from 1825 holding up?  Until 1870 all you had to do was get off a boat, sign a piece of paper, be white and wait a few years.  That's not a charge of racism.  That's simply a fact. 

Most early immigration laws were exclusionary in nature because people didn't like those foreign speaking f'urners coming into THEIR states. 

You might find this site outlining the origins of how the federal government got involved in immigration interesting.

Origins of the Federal Immigration Service

But it doesn't matter your entire premise is flawed from the outset.  You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You're criticizing the libertarian model for not fitting into the statist model we've created and judging it lacking as a result.

My point was and still is, that this is an entirely different conversation under a libertarian or liberal model. 

If libertarian or liberal principles had been and were still the rule of law to begin with, these problems you're railing against wouldn't exist.  In large part because we wouldn't have implemented welfare programs people can qualify for without working for "American citizens" if anyone could be an American citizen.   

I mean seriously ... exactly what part of libertarianism do you think welfare falls under?

Queshank
  

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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #29 - May 14th, 2018 at 6:19pm
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Queshank wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
That's probably true patrick.  I'm not accusing you of demonization.  But you can't be so blind to the shifting winds around you as to ignore how much demonizing of illegal immigrants many on the right have done and are still doing.  Perhaps this is why their immigrant brethren feel like they're being demonized as well and vote Democratic.


No - stick to the facts.  When you point out that a particular group of people are causing all kinds of problems, you're not "demonizing".


Quote:
Did they tho?  Did George Washington's parents get permission from the existing state to come to the USA? 


Uhhhh - Washington's father and grandfather were born in America.

Quote:
Which of our Founding Father's ancestors immigrated here "legally?"


There was no nation-state and no immigration laws when they came.  Also no welfare state to plunder.

Quote:
Are you prepared to go through the first 100 years of immigration law and what constituted immigrants and what the requirements were?  How's the paperwork from 1825 holding up?  Until 1870 all you had to do was get off a boat, sign a piece of paper, be white and wait a few years.  That's not a charge of racism.  That's simply a fact. 


Yeah, so what?

Quote:
Most early immigration laws were exclusionary in nature because people didn't like those foreign speaking f'urners coming into THEIR states. 


They didn't want their polity and culture overwhelmed by endless streams of people with an alien culture, religions, traditions, and concept of government.

Quote:
But it doesn't matter your entire premise is flawed from the outset.  You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You're criticizing the libertarian model for not fitting into the statist model we've created and judging it lacking as a result.


No, you misunderstood,  Reread the OP.  I criticize them for being inconsistent.


Quote:
If libertarian or liberal principles had been and were still the rule of law to begin with, these problems you're railing against wouldn't exist.

  In large part because we wouldn't have implemented welfare programs people can qualify for without working for "American citizens" if anyone could be an American citizen.   


If the Queen had a schlong, she'd be the King.  Deal with here and now.





  
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