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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp (Read 583 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #30 - May 14th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 6:19pm:
No, you misunderstood,  Reread the OP.  I criticize them for being inconsistent.

I didn't pick that message up in OP. Where is the inconsistency?

You admitted you did not follow libertarian rights theory, so what makes you think you found an inconsistency?
  

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patrick2
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #31 - May 14th, 2018 at 10:46pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
I didn't pick that message up in OP. Where is the inconsistency?

You admitted you did not follow libertarian rights theory, so what makes you think you found an inconsistency?



I thought it was pretty clear.  They oppose statism, but support an immigration policy that will result in an ever-enlarging pool of voters for whom experience has shown will support big government.   Trump won for a number of reasons, but if immigration continues as it has, the republican party will be permanently closed out of the presidency simply by being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of future democrat votes being imported.  The libs understand this and it's of course why they support the vast immigration into this country.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #32 - May 14th, 2018 at 11:16pm
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patrick2 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 10:46pm:
I thought it was pretty clear.  They oppose statism, but support an immigration policy that will result in an ever-enlarging pool of voters for whom experience has shown will support big government.   Trump won for a number of reasons, but if immigration continues as it has, the republican party will be permanently closed out of the presidency simply by being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of future democrat votes being imported.  The libs understand this and it's of course why they support the vast immigration into this country.

Okay but that's not an inconsistency for at least 2 reasons.

The first being that the Republican party is no small government option for libertarians. The fight for the survival of the GOP is not "our" fight.

And the other reason there is no inconsistency: we already have a welfare system that is not going anywhere. So what is gained by supporting more big government at the border? What is gained by giving government an excuse to police every rental agreement? Every hiring decision?

For that's exactly what is involved when we restrict immigration and hiring.
  

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patrick2
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #33 - May 15th, 2018 at 2:31am
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 11:16pm:
Okay but that's not an inconsistency for at least 2 reasons.

The first being that the Republican party is no small government option for libertarians. The fight for the survival of the GOP is not "our" fight.


The republican concept of government is farrrrrrr smaller than the libs.  For example - was it republicans who passed obamacare? Uh, noooooooooooo. 

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And the other reason there is no inconsistency: we already have a welfare system that is not going anywhere. So what is gained by supporting more big government at the border? What is gained by giving government an excuse to police every rental agreement? Every hiring decision?


Because if libs get permanent power it'll get worse and worse!  Look at California for a preview of coming attractions.

Look at some of Trump's actions in less than two years:


- Effectively removed the penalty for not buying obamacare.

- Drastically reduced tax rates.

- Banned executive branch employees from being lobbyists for five years

- Ordered two regulations to be repealed for every new regulation

- Actively encouraging a roll-back of Dodd-Frank

- Reining in the EPA

- Stopped federal funding of abortion

- Froze federal hiring for two months in 2017

- Didn't fill 200 federal job vacancies for positions he felt were unnecessary

- Rolled back a hussein regulation on social security recipients from owning guns

- Ended federal subsidies to health insurance companies

So there's no difference between that, and say, Hussein?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT   Wink Grin
  
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Lomelis
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #34 - May 15th, 2018 at 3:43am
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patrick2 wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:31am:
The republican concept of government is farrrrrrr smaller than the libs.  For example - was it republicans who passed obamacare? Uh, noooooooooooo. 


Horseshit.  It's just that the Reps prefer different programs.  If what you stated were true then we would actually see smaller government when Reps control all the branches instead of even more gov.

Quote:
Because if libs get permanent power it'll get worse and worse!  Look at California for a preview of coming attractions.


The biggest difference between the Dems and the Reps right now seems to be that the Dems at least try to pay for their programs while the Reps put everything on credit. 

That's a terrible way to do anything.

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Look at some of Trump's actions in less than two years:


Yes, let's do so:

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- Effectively removed the penalty for not buying obamacare.


Good deal.  But the program itself is still in place.

Quote:
- Drastically reduced tax rates.


Another good thing.  Unfortunately spending was massively increased.  A very bad thing when you create crappity smacking huge deficits.

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- Banned executive branch employees from being lobbyists for five years


Meh. This doesn't mean jack.

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- Ordered two regulations to be repealed for every new regulation


Lol.  He can -order- Congress to do whatever he wants but apparently they ain't listening and he isn't willing to veto.

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- Actively encouraging a roll-back of Dodd-Frank


Encouragement certainly feels good.

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- Reining in the EPA


Kinda.  While his EPA chief has been using his position like a corrupt buffoon.

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- Stopped federal funding of abortion


Wrong.  Planned Parenthood got their package.

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- Froze federal hiring for two months in 2017


Oh boy.   Two months.  Then signed a massive government spending spree that will increase government hiring.  Not impressive.

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- Didn't fill 200 federal job vacancies for positions he felt were unnecessary


And increased hiring in other federal departments that he felt were necessary.  Ho hum.  More of the same.

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- Rolled back a hussein regulation on social security recipients from owning guns


That's nice.  He also proclaimed that police should simply arrest gun owners without any evidence of wrong doing just because they felt like it.  crappity smacking awesome.

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- Ended federal subsidies to health insurance companies


Did he now?

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So there's no difference between that, and say, Hussein?



Oh there are differences.  But not significant enough for many libertarians to support that sort of statism.

The GOP is statist.  Trump is a nationalist populist statist.

You will not understand.
  

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Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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patrick2
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #35 - May 15th, 2018 at 11:25am
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Lomelis wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 3:43am:
Horseshit.  It's just that the Reps prefer different programs.  If what you stated were true then we would actually see smaller government when Reps control all the branches instead of even more gov.


And we have as I've shown below.  Roll Eyes


Quote:
The biggest difference between the Dems and the Reps right now seems to be that the Dems at least try to pay for their programs while the Reps put everything on credit. 


Riiiiiiiiight - we have a vast national debt because of lib social security, Medicaid, and medicare, plus trillions spent on trying to get blacks squared away in the last 50 years, and libs pay for their programs, huh?   Grin


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Good deal.  But the program itself is still in place.



Yep, but not because of Trump, or conservative republicans.  RINOs exist.

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Another good thing.  Unfortunately spending was massively increased.  


That was to make up for a disastrous decline in the US military during the Hussein debacle, plus the emergence of big serious threats by NoKo, Iran, and Russia.  I'm aware that libertarians like to pretend such things don't exist, and that if you hug yourself and say "I wish they'll go away!" ten times, you don't have to worry about them.  Grin

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Meh. This doesn't mean jack.


You're clueless - that's been one of the biggest cost drivers in government.

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Lol.  He can -order- Congress to do whatever he wants but apparently they ain't listening and he isn't willing to veto.


You don't know what you're talking about - that was an executive order and didn't involve congress.

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Encouragement certainly feels good.


A better choice of words would have been if I said worked hard on the issue - but congress has to decide that, and then you come up against the lib/RINO problem.

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Kinda.  While his EPA chief has been using his position like a corrupt buffoon.


Kinda my ass.  There have been BIG rolling back of government overreach there.

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Wrong.  Planned Parenthood got their package.


I didn't state that right - congress DID cut the funds, and Trump DID sign it, but it got overturned by a federal judge - don't blame conservatives for that.

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Oh boy.   Two months.  Then signed a massive government spending spree that will increase government hiring.  Not impressive.


Uh, no it won't.  Federal employees have declined under Trump.



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Did he now?


Yeah - try to catch up.  Wink

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Oh there are differences.  But not significant enough for many libertarians to support that sort of statism.


The differences are vast.

Quote:
The GOP is statist.  Trump is a nationalist populist statist.


Nonsense.

  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Re immigration, the self-applicable paradox libertarians don't grasp
Reply #36 - May 15th, 2018 at 11:46am
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Let's be real here for a moment, Pat.

You can plainly tell that myself, Lomelis, and libertarians in general do not the see the GOP the way you do.

There are differences between the parties but they are not such that one escapes the statist label. As the GOP moves toward populism and nationalism, it leaves libertarians even less to be excited about.

If libertarians believe that both parties are equally deplorable, there is no inconsistency here. One can oppose immigration restrictions on libertarian grounds without facing a hard trade off politically. We don't care about the GOP.

So we have settled the issue you bring up. Yet the inconsistency on the part of those who claim to support limited government but want to expand government authority on the border, in a massive way, remains.
  

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