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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 74th anniversary of D Day today (Read 624 times)
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #60 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 12:55am
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patrick2 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 12:41am:
If the queen had balls, she'd be the king.

Yes, the Versailles Treaty was a big cause, and the causes had causes, going infinitely back in history.  Whatever the cause, Hitler should have, and could have, been nipped in the bud.


Of course, and the rise of Hitler could have been nipped in the bud without bloodshed.  You prefer to ignore that.
  

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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #61 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 4:22am
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patrick2 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 12:38am:
You simply don't know what you're talking about.  On the eve of WW2, the US army was ranked EIGHTH behind that perennial powerhouse Italy.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-list-of-military-rankings-worldwide-look-like...

That literally does nothing to counter anything I've said.

If the US was able to create a large military force very quickly in reality, then they would have been able to do so in your alternate reality as well.

patrick2 wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 12:38am:
There was so little military equipment, that American  soldiers were training with fake wooden guns, as if they were little boys:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/video/soldiers-training-for-war-with-makeshif...


Yet there were guns everywhere.

And re-tooling to create weapons didn't take long in reality. Why would it have taken a long time in an alternate reality where there are no changes to industrial variables?

Certainly, it would have been more difficult for the Germans to figure out how to transport 10 millions soldiers, along with all of the food and water and bullets and tanks, across an entire ocean as it would have been for the US to start pumping out rifles at an incredible clip.

As it was, the US in 1941 started providing ships and other military equipment to Britain and Russia and free France pretty quickly, so I'm guessing they could have done so for themselves in your alternate reality as well.

In such conventional conflicts, the country that is separated by oceans with a well armed populace and a much larger manufacturing base would simply not fall to an invading force. Or, at the very least, it would be an incredible longshot.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Limey.
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #62 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 12:30am:
I generally concur in that Germany was very close to conquering Russia.  They made a few critical mistakes, the two biggest having nothing to do with supply lines or military strategy.  They failed to go to full wartime footing for years after the war started -- a victim of their own victory complex.  It lulled them into relative complacency, and they didn't institute full-scale drafts until it was pretty much too late.

Also, they imposed a harsh occupation over the Russian populace that was entirely unnecessary and in fact lit up an aggressive partisan resistance movement.  This was also sad, given the close historical relationship between the two countries, prior to the wars.

I'm not sure it's Britain who saved the day, though, given that the vast majority of fighting and dying happened in the east, rather than the west.


Hitler always planned to attack Russia.


He did so a few weeks too late (because of Greek/Balkan involvements underpinned by Britain) thus hitting Winter before he hit Moscow.

His Army was worn out by the assault. Another 10-15 good divisions and Stalin was finished.


Those divisions were in Western France, Norway and, especially, North Africa. They were facing or fighting British forces.


Had the U.K. been defeated or compromised or surrendered, the USSR would have fallen.

An Axis link up would’ve given the whole of Eurasia and Aurtalasia to anti democratic forces probably by mid 1943 at the latest.


This ‘they couldn’t have invaded America’ thing; probably so. Wouldn’t need to. They control all world trade.


The ‘they would’ve succumbed to internal rebellion from suppressed peoples’.


No.  The were, literally, going to kill them all. Auschwitz was a tiny thing compared to their plans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
  

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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #63 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
Hitler always planned to attack Russia.


He did so a few weeks too late (because of Greek/Balkan involvements underpinned by Britain) thus hitting Winter before he hit Moscow.

His Army was worn out by the assault. Another 10-15 good divisions and Stalin was finished.


Those divisions were in Western France, Norway and, especially, North Africa. They were facing or fighting British forces.


Had the U.K. been defeated or compromised or surrendered, the USSR would have fallen.

An Axis link up would’ve given the whole of Eurasia and Aurtalasia to anti democratic forces probably by mid 1943 at the latest.


This ‘they couldn’t have invaded America’ thing; probably so. Wouldn’t need to. They control all world trade.


The ‘they would’ve succumbed to internal rebellion from suppressed peoples’.


No.  The were, literally, going to kill them all. Auschwitz was a tiny thing compared to their plans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

So after devastating the entire continent and murdering all the inhabitants, how were they going to "control all trade" in the world?

With what?
  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Limey.
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #64 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:23pm
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Another point; the US performed astonishing miracles of military expansion in 1941-44 but had almost zero successful fighting experience until the North African campaign. That started very badly for them.

Against a victorious Axis they’d have been at that disadvantage too.



Face it; we saved your arses in WWII
  

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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #65 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:29pm
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Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:23pm:
Another point; the US performed astonishing miracles of military expansion in 1941-44 but had almost zero successful fighting experience until the North African campaign. That started very badly for them.

Against a victorious Axis they’d have been at that disadvantage too.



Face it; we saved your arses in WWII

If you want to take nationalistic pride, that's fine.

But I'm finding myself in the midst of a conversation about how without American involvement, the Nazis would have taken over all of Europe and all of America (or at least America would have been destroyed because the Nazis would have "controlled all trade").

Though I find it far more likely that the Americans and the European state established by Germany would have simply started trading.

Anyway, now I'm being told that Britain "saved" America's "ass". Which I'm struggling to piece together given the earlier sentences in this post.

It seems America came in to save, primarily, the French and the British. That's really it. Sure, Benelux as well. Smaller nations. Denmark didn't really have that tough of a go, as an example.

The rest were either belligerent or eventually given over to the Soviets anyway, which is hardly being "saved". Or neutral in the conflict.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Limey.
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #66 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 5:22pm:
So after devastating the entire continent and murdering all the inhabitants, how were they going to "control all trade" in the world?

With what?


I think you’re deliberately turning off your nuance-antennae because you don’t like what you’re being shown.


Things were very finely balanced in 1939-40.

It’s not ‘national pride’ driving my views here; the U.K. acted abominably in many ways regarding the rise of both totalitarianisms back then. There were powerful factions in the U.K. who wanted peace at any price; although it’s hard to be sure, some of that seems to have disguised pro-Fascist groups.

The Germans kicked French and British arse on land in 1940. Literally the only thing preventing Nazi domination of Europe - look it up- in Summer 1940 was the British military (actually not so much the Army just then) and a resolute defiance politically. Without them, check mate right then.


The Axis would without a shadow of a doubt have vapourised the Soviets in that scenario

They nearly did it anyhow.

So, alternate 1942, where’s America?


I don’t think there were any must-have raw materials in the USA, were there? With a slave economy from Wales to Kamchatka, are there any goods Hitler can’t do without coming from, say, Ohio?

I think the obvious next move was for the US -already, don’t forget, pretty much in tune with elements of Nazi racial thought- to start looking a bit less like America and a bit more like the Reich.

Or would the US have solved the strategic problem which says the Axis couldn’t have invaded, and done DDay across the Atlantic?
  

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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #67 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
I think you’re deliberately turning off your nuance-antennae because you don’t like what you’re being shown.

I don't like what I'm being shown. Yes. Because it's outlandish.

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
The Germans kicked French and British arse on land in 1940. Literally the only thing preventing Nazi domination of Europe - look it up- in Summer 1940 was the British military (actually not so much the Army just then) and a resolute defiance politically. Without them, check mate right then.

Checkmate for a while perhaps.

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
The Axis would without a shadow of a doubt have vapourised the Soviets in that scenario

By "vapourize", do you mean kill most all of the men of the Soviet Union? How far could they have gone? To the Pacific? With what men?

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
So, alternate 1942, where’s America?

Hugely populated. Super well armed. And primed to trade with anybody who would want to trade with them. Much of Eurasia would need goods and materials.

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
I don’t think there were any must-have raw materials in the USA, were there? With a slave economy from Wales to Kamchatka, are there any goods Hitler can’t do without coming from, say, Ohio?

You overestimate the productivity of slave labor versus a relatively free market industrial titan.

And the idea that Kamchatka would be under Nazi rule? How many people do you think lived in Germany at the time?

Do you think one squad of Germans could handle hundreds of square miles of territory?

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
I think the obvious next move was for the US -already, don’t forget, pretty much in tune with elements of Nazi racial thought- to start looking a bit less like America and a bit more like the Reich.

Good luck. The British couldn't do it when the US was a bunch of poor farmers in a sparsely populated and often inhospitable land. And when Britain was the juggernaut of the times.

But the Germans were going to ferry 10 million troops and 50,000 tanks across the Atlantic? Because that's what it would take. And where are these troops coming from? Who's holding down the fort in Kamchatka?

Limey. wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
Or would the US have solved the strategic problem which says the Axis couldn’t have invaded, and done DDay across the Atlantic?

I don't understand the question.


I think many in France and England want to make it seem as though America had to involve itself in war or face its own ruination. Probably because of the guilt associated with f***ing up the end of the first world war, setting in motion the events which led to the second.

And American "patriots" love to place the stakes as high as possible when discussing past military actions in America's past. Because they glorify war at all opportunities.

And I'm not even saying that the US should not have involved itself.

I'm more saying that the US would have existed had it not. We would not "all be speaking German!" Because a meth'd out Hitler would have made a lot more mistakes.

  

Wadsworth wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
You are awfully concerned about who gets to live.  Why is it so important to you?
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Limey.
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #68 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 9:11pm
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Yes. America would’ve had all sorts of funky groovy stuff to sell.


But Mr. Hitler (who would’ve been in perfect physical health) or a successor would’ve been the buyer with power not the desperate one.


America knows about that; it utterly wrung Britain dry despite the common cause.


Would a corrupt and immoral Bazi Europe have been a good trading partner? Insert laugh track.


If the US had wanted to stay Democratic I’m sure that could’ve happened. In a Fascist world they’ve looked like NK does now.
  

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Limey.
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Re: 74th anniversary of D Day today
Reply #69 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 9:14pm
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It won’t let me modify.

By ‘Bazi’ I meant, of course, ‘Nazi’.


‘Bazi’ sounds like a good Lebanese bar. I may copyright it.
  

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