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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A study in blind partisanship: What causes it? (Read 940 times)
Ulysses
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #10 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 3:20am
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LOL, Jasmine is a shill for the American Nazi Party.

That much is clear from her posts.

  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #11 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:16am
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patrick2 wrote on Jun 11th, 2018 at 6:18pm:
I believe all those things


I know that. I think you were probably one of the posters Jas was thinking of as she created this thread.

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, and there's nothing "blind" about it - it's a clear-eyed sober look at who the leftwing is, what they do, and what they want to do, and I'll defend my perception in rational debate, but those rarely occur around here. 


I don't know how you can say that with a straight face, to be honest. There is nothing sober about you, Stu or Archie's take on the left wing.

You see these people as evil incarnate. They have the worst motivations, they know nothing that is true and they want to destroy everything holy and good about the world.

They are threats to civilization.

^ This is what passes for "sober analysis."

And of course there is the blindspot you guys have to PC politics. Which is ironic, as you have the left's number on that stuff.

But somehow your own brand of male, white and Christian victimhood politics gets a pass and is not seen as a form of political correctness. But it is. It is victim politics dialed up to the stars.

Quote:
Also notice that it's irrational to take two pretty much diametric opposite views and sort of fuzzily imply that one is good as the other, and, gosh darnit, can't we just get along?   

No one has done that. We can argue our points without demonizing our opposition and making them into threats to civilization, or people with ill intentions.

We can make points against policies without making points against posters and personalities.

We can debate policies without dehumanizing each other and without all the tribalism.

And we can hold our own side up to the same standards we set for others.

And when we do that we will no longer be blind partisans.
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:48am by TowardLiberty »  

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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #12 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:17am
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Ulysses wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 3:20am:
LOL, Jasmine is a shill for the American Nazi Party.

That much is clear from her posts.


That sounds like something a blind partisan would say.

It also sounds like something the old Jasmine would have said, before she evolved into the more kind and gentle creature we see before us today.

Do we really want to imitate old Jasmine? Isn't new Jasmine more the model of what we should strive to be?
  

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Queshank
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #13 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:15am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:16am:
I know that. I think you were probably one of the posters Jas was thinking of as she created this thread.


I don't think so.  I think I could make an argument there have always been rabid elements of the left that have wanted exactly what patrick is afraid of.  Moreover I could definitely make the argument that rabid element has gained strength and support in recent years.

That's not "blind" partisanship.  It's not even partisanship.  Just because one person's vision of America differs from another and each sees the other as imperiling that vision isn't an example of partisanship.

Patrick may be a blind partisan on other issues, but I don't think what he's saying there is an example of it.

I think Jasmine's clarification of what she means by "blind" partisanship changes my own response.  Her mentioning Ulysses and Wadsworth specifically threw me off.

Rather Jasmine seems to be talking about the way people react to cognitive dissonance.  Ignoring information that doesn't fit your pre conceived narrative.  And as I've always maintained that's not a left/right nor a smart/dumb issue.  It's a human issue.

So my response to Jasmine's question #2 has to change to ...

It's both. 

An unwillingness because of the discomfort that ensues in having to adjust one's entire world view to the acceptance of new information. 

And in some cases an inability to do so because of the defense mechanism bred into us as human beings.  Fragility has little to do with intelligence and more to do with life experiences.

Not everybody can handle the stress and in my experience, most people who don't want to talk about it simply don't want to deal with that stress.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #14 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:28am
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Queshank wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:15am:
I don't think so.  I think I could make an argument there have always been rabid elements of the left that have wanted exactly what patrick is afraid of.  Moreover I could definitely make the argument that rabid element has gained strength and support in recent years.

That's not "blind" partisanship.  It's not even partisanship.  Just because one person's vision of America differs from another and each sees the other as imperiling that vision isn't an example of partisanship.

Patrick may be a blind partisan on other issues, but I don't think what he's saying there is an example of it.


That's fair. And I don't entirely disagree.

But I do think what you are speaking of only applies to a narrow subset of the left. Perhaps they are some of the more vocal and prominent on the internet.

But even these people are well intentioned even if their vision is fundamentally at odds with Pats. But blind partisanship prevents us from seeing it. It leads us to dehumanizing them.

And that feeds into their white privilege, patriarchy, SJW world view. The PC elements on the right bring legitimacy to the leftwing SJW project. And vice versa.

Quote:
I think Jasmine's clarification of what she means by "blind" partisanship changes my own response.  Her mentioning Ulysses and Wadsworth specifically threw me off.

Rather Jasmine seems to be talking about the way people react to cognitive dissonance.  Ignoring information that doesn't fit your pre conceived narrative.  And as I've always maintained that's not a left/right nor a smart/dumb issue.  It's a human issue.

So my response to Jasmine's question #2 has to change to ...

It's both. 

An unwillingness because of the discomfort that ensues in having to adjust one's entire world view to the acceptance of new information. 

And in some cases an inability to do so because of the defense mechanism bred into us as human beings.  Fragility has little to do with intelligence and more to do with life experiences.

Not everybody can handle the stress and in my experience, most people who don't want to talk about it simply don't want to deal with that stress.

Queshank

I'd say that's about as good of an explanation as we are likely to come up with.
  

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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #15 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:35am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:28am:
That's fair. And I don't entirely disagree.

But I do think what you are speaking of only applies to a narrow subset of the left. Perhaps they are some of the more vocal and prominent on the internet.

But even these people are well intentioned even if their vision is fundamentally at odds with Pats. But blind partisanship prevents us from seeing it. It leads us to dehumanizing them.


I think you're throwing a lot under the umbrella of "well intentioned."  I suppose we can argue everyone is "well intentioned" in simply wanting everyone to be like they are.  How could that be a bad thing by anyone's perspective?

But I would argue the means of extracting that end result belie the "intentions."  And I'm not giving the right a free pass on that bullshit.

I think what I'm speaking of always used to apply to a narrow subset of the left.  That narrow subset is becoming more popular.  They're not just becoming more prominent and vocal on the Internet, they're becoming more prominent and vocal in our news media.

The willingness of the left to use force, censorship and violence to force everyone to be like them far exceeds the willingness of the right to do the same.  Speaking as a lifelong leftist I can assure you that hasn't always been the case as it is now.

I would argue the nutjobs on the right who vilify their opposition are massively outnumbered by the nutjobs currently on the left vilifying their opposition.  It is still a minority on the right.  On the left, it's the mainstream default position.  You can't even be accepted by the left if you don't accept this narrative.  I suppose it's the left's version of RINOs.

Quote:
And that feeds into the white privilege, patriarchy, SJW world view.


Can you define any of those terms so I know what you mean by them?  What exactly is "patriarchy?"  What exactly is "white privilege?"  What exactly is a "SJW world view?"

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Ulysses
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #16 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:38am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:17am:
That sounds like something a blind partisan would say.

It also sounds like something the old Jasmine would have said, before she evolved into the more kind and gentle creature we see before us today.

Do we really want to imitate old Jasmine? Isn't new Jasmine more the model of what we should strive to be?


Isn't there a forum rule against calling people out in an OP?

Seems like such niceties are not on the "new Jasmine"'s menu.

There is nothing about her that strikes me as kind, or gentle. Not when she advocates wholesale slaughter to people she doesn't simply because they are strangers, not when she advocates extermination of other races/cultures/peoples, not when she uses racist epithets to describe others.

And she's extremely manipulative, constantly asking loaded questions and then throwing extended tantrums when one refuses to play her games.

Jasmine is blinded by her own bias, prejudice, and animosity.


  

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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #17 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:44am
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Ulysses wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:38am:
Isn't there a forum rule against calling people out in an OP?

Seems like such niceties are not on the "new Jasmine"'s menu.

There is nothing about her that strikes me as kind, or gentle. Not when she advocates wholesale slaughter to people she doesn't simply because they are strangers, not when she advocates extermination of other races/cultures/peoples, not when she uses racist epithets to describe others.

And she's extremely manipulative, constantly asking loaded questions and then throwing extended tantrums when one refuses to play her games.


What is funny about Jas is that she calls us out to be on the extreme opposite side of stu.  When she can't even identify her own extreme racist views.  It is nothing new or changed about Jas.  She is just feeling very uncomfortable not due to her extreme partisan views, which I really don't beleive she cares about one way or the other, but by her extreme racist views.  Also, I would like to point out that it is the same issues with stu and patty.  They are extreme racist, not extreme wingnuts.
  

Jasmine wrote on May 6th, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Yes, I heard about this. Just goes to show McLame’s true loyalties. Hopefully, Trump won’t go to his funeral very, very soon.


TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
I'll try but it might be beyond my ability. Insulting is "like 90% of what I do here."
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TowardLiberty
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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #18 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:49am
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Queshank wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:35am:
I think you're throwing a lot under the umbrella of "well intentioned."  I suppose we can argue everyone is "well intentioned" in simply wanting everyone to be like they are.  How could that be a bad thing by anyone's perspective?


I am including quite a bit under that umbrella. I would also add that we are all products of our experiences and form our opinions based on this limited knowledge set.

So not only are these lefties well intentioned, in my view, we can also say they see things through their own unique perspective, which is mediated and limited by their ideas of how things work.

My point in bringing this up is to underline how important it is we come at these disagreements from a position of understanding and empathy rather than conflict and opposition.

Otherwise the tribal tendency takes over and nothing good happens.

Quote:
But I would argue the means of extracting that end result belie the "intentions."  And I'm not giving the right a free pass on that bullshit.

I think what I'm speaking of always used to apply to a narrow subset of the left.  That narrow subset is becoming more popular.  They're not just becoming more prominent and vocal on the Internet, they're becoming more prominent and vocal in our news media.

The willingness of the left to use force, censorship and violence to force everyone to be like them far exceeds the willingness of the right to do the same.  Speaking as a lifelong leftist I can assure you that hasn't always been the case as it is now.

I would argue the nutjobs on the right who vilify their opposition are massively outnumbered by the nutjobs currently on the left vilifying their opposition.  It is still a minority on the right.  On the left, it's the mainstream default position.  You can't even be accepted by the left if you don't accept this narrative.  I suppose it's the left's version of RINOs.


Well, you may very well be right about this being more prominent on the left. I certainly agree that it is the biggest problem the left has. But I also think it is the right's biggest problem. Which side has the greater proportion I could not begin to say.

It seems to be growing in both camps.

Quote:
Can you define any of those terms so I know what you mean by them?  What exactly is "patriarchy?"  What exactly is "white privilege?"  What exactly is a "SJW world view?"

Queshank


Patriarchy = male dominated society; norms, rules and outcomes are shaped by males for males.
White privilege = systematic beneficial treatment for whites on the part of other whites in positions of authority or power.
SJW worldview = seeing people in terms of victim status; limited to women, people of color and LGBTQ communities.
  

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Re: A study in blind partisanship: What causes it?
Reply #19 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:53am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:49am:
I am including quite a bit under that umbrella. I would also add that we are all products of our experiences and form our opinions based on this limited knowledge set.

So not only are these lefties well intentioned, in my view, we can also say they see things through their own unique perspective, which is mediated and limited by their ideas of how things work.


As I said I guess we can just call everyone well intentioned then.  Even Nazis.  They have good intentions for the betterment of mankind.  Who cares about the methods taken, amirite?

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My point in bringing this up is to underline how important it is we come at these disagreements from a position of understanding and empathy rather than conflict and opposition.

Otherwise the tribal tendency takes over and nothing good happens.


Sounds like you need to start preaching to the left Wink

Quote:
Well, you may very well be right about this being more prominent on the left. I certainly agree that it is the biggest problem the left has. But I also think it is the right's biggest problem. Which side has the greater proportion I could not begin to say.

It seems to be growing in both camps.


You may be right.  But unfortunately I think all rights and human progress flow from freedom of speech.  And it breaks my heart to admit it but the right seems to be the home for that these days.  The "left" gave up a lot of issues.  Deliberately and with no regrets.  One of those is the defense of free speech.

Quote:
Patriarchy = male dominated society; norms, rules and outcomes are shaped by males for males.
White privilege = systematic beneficial treatment for whites on the part of other whites in positions of authority or power.
SJW worldview = seeing people in terms of victim status, limited to women, people of color and LGBTQ communities.


I know the dictionary definitions.  I wanted to know how you think they apply to the conversation.

Is patriarchy something we need to worry about?  Do we live in a male dominated society in your opinion?

Is white privilege something we need to worry about?  Do we live in a society dominated by white privilege?

Is the SJW worldview a valid worldview?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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