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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Legitimacy? (Read 641 times)
Wadsworth
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #30 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:05pm
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Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
He tried to work with them by saying his opinion was more important because he won the election.  Obama wasn't above a few dick moves of his own, despite the golden pedestal Democrats place him on.

Yes it is funny how I say I have defended Obama.  (Here on the boards...repeatedly...verifiably.)  Because I have.

But I didn't defend him by making shit up or distorting reality like a blind partisan.  See the difference?

I defended him by using objectivity and staying in touch with reality.

Queshank

Sure you have.  But of course the republicans do not put Trump on a blind pedestal.  Of course not.  I see more excuses on this board for Trump than I have ever seen for Obama.  Now if you honestly believe that Obama was just as partisan or even more than the Donald, then you have proven my point.
  

Jasmine wrote on May 6th, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Yes, I heard about this. Just goes to show McLame’s true loyalties. Hopefully, Trump won’t go to his funeral very, very soon.


TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
I'll try but it might be beyond my ability. Insulting is "like 90% of what I do here."
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #31 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:15pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Sure you have.  But of course the republicans do not put Trump on a blind pedestal.  Of course not. 


Oh of course they do.  I'm wildly entertained watching evangelicals contort themselves to reimagine Trump.  Almost as wildly entertained as I am watching leftists contort themselves to to reimagine Trump their way.

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I see more excuses on this board for Trump than I have ever seen for Obama. 


No you don't.  You see explanations from a more objective source for why Trump does the things he does, and warnings about why the left "reimagining" Trump works out in Trump's favor.

I support some of the things Trump wants to do. 

I want our troops returned home from around the world and to stop policing the world and if Trump manages to accomplish things there, kudos.  I want free trade not the supply side economics bullshit of NAFTA and the crime, drug trade and illegal immigration that came with it.  (Look into how NAFTA decimated the peasant farmers in Mexico and how they turned to growing drug crops or becoming footsoldiers in the cartels for employment sometime.) And I support Trump in renegotiating or perhaps pulling out of NAFTA altogether in exchange for more equitable trading arrangements.  And if he accomplishes it I'll cheer.  Our trade agreements in many cases are based on us giving favorable terms to foreign countries so they'll tolerate us maintaining forward bases to project American power around the world.  One of the most laughable myths that everyone just swallows because ... TRUMP! ... is the idea that Trump is protectionist and the rest of the Western world is free trade.  It's bullshit.

But I'll point out Wadsworth ... those are both leftist positions. 

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Now if you honestly believe that Obama was just as partisan or even more than the Donald, then you have proven my point.


That's a conversation for another thread.   Heidi Heitkamp anyone?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #32 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:36pm
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Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:15pm:
Oh of course they do.  I'm wildly entertained watching evangelicals contort themselves to reimagine Trump.  Almost as wildly entertained as I am watching leftists contort themselves to to reimagine Trump their way.
  Step in the right direction.  But please don't think that the left is expected to act any differently

Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:15pm:
No you don't.  You see explanations from a more objective source for why Trump does the things he does, and warnings about why the left "reimagining" Trump works out in Trump's favor.
   You may think it works in his favor.  I hear you explaining how much of a genius he is to act like an asshole, but the only ones he is impressing are other assholes



Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:15pm:
I support some of the things Trump wants to do. 

I want our troops returned home from around the world and to stop policing the world and if Trump manages to accomplish things there, kudos.  I want free trade not the supply side economics bullshit of NAFTA and the crime, drug trade and illegal immigration that came with it.  (Look into how NAFTA decimated the peasant farmers in Mexico and how they turned to growing drug crops or becoming footsoldiers in the cartels for employment sometime.) And I support Trump in renegotiating or perhaps pulling out of NAFTA altogether in exchange for more equitable trading arrangements.  And if he accomplishes it I'll cheer.  Our trade agreements in many cases are based on us giving favorable terms to foreign countries so they'll tolerate us maintaining forward bases to project American power around the world.  One of the most laughable myths that everyone just swallows because ... TRUMP! ... is the idea that Trump is protectionist and the rest of the Western world is free trade.  It's bullshit.

But I'll point out Wadsworth ... those are both leftist positions. 


That's a conversation for another thread.   Heidi Heitkamp anyone?

Queshank

The drug trade in Mexico has nothing to do with NAFTA.  they had a great drug trade long before NAFTA.  Trump does not care about a free trade agreement.  He only cares about pocketing money for the Trumps and is using the presidency to do it.  Take China for instance.  China is screwing us as far as trade goes, not Canada.  But China gave his daughter a deal.  Talking about blind partisanship.  It is plain to see what went down with Ivanka, ZTE and Africa.  But maybe you want to be blind.  Yes Trump talks a lot of sh*t and the lambs follow.  Not knowing that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:16pm by Wadsworth »  

Jasmine wrote on May 6th, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Yes, I heard about this. Just goes to show McLame’s true loyalties. Hopefully, Trump won’t go to his funeral very, very soon.


TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
I'll try but it might be beyond my ability. Insulting is "like 90% of what I do here."
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Queshank
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #33 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:31pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:36pm:
  Step in the right direction.  But please don't think that the left is expected to act any differently


Oh but I do think the left is supposed to act differently.  I hold my own allies to a higher standard for behavior than I do my political opponents.  I don't mind when my political opponents act like bags of dicks.  I do mind when my own side does damage to the public perception of my political views by acting like a bag of dicks.

Quote:
   You may think it works in his favor.  I hear you explaining how much of a genius he is to act like an asshole, but the only ones he is impressing are other assholes


And that is part of the problem.  You legitimately believe half the country ... the middle half of course because why not ... are assholes.  You're simply wrong.  Not just kind of wrong.  Not just a little bit wrong.  You're 100% wrong.  There are a lot of assholes on the left.  I would almost be willing to argue the likelihood of there being more assholes on the left than the right.  I make no bones about my own status as an asshole.  I'm just getting too old to care anymore.   And whether you care to embrace me or not, I am definitely solidly on the left side of the spectrum.  I'm just not a leftIST.  And that's an important distinction that I didn't realize was so important until about the last 5 years.

I think it's misconstruing a lot of what I've said about Trump to say you hear me explaining how much of a genius he is.  I've said repeatedly that it's not so much that Trump is smart, as it is his public opposition is so ... crappity smacking ... dumb.  We are at a low point in intellectual leadership on the left.  Obama was a very smart, very well educated, very impressive man.  He's done tho.  We can't hide behind him on the left anymore.  Someone needs to step up and give the party something worth fighting for.  The left continually rejects Bernie.  That's fine even if he has his finger on the problems more solidly than most people on the left.  But if not Bernie ... somebody better get out there and start cleaning things up for the followers.

When I say Trump uses a brilliant tactic ... I'm not pretending he came up with it on his own.  "It's better to be feared than to be loved, if you cannot be both." isn't a new concept Trump came up with.  Using Cicerian devices like "“I promised I would not say that she [Carly Fiornia] ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground, that she laid off tens of thousands of people and she got viciously fired. I said I will not say it, so I will not say it" isn't a new rhetorical device Trump came up with.  It's literally over 2,000 years old and named after one of the greatest orators in human history.

And THAT is where I fault the left.  They are supposed to be the educated people.  They are supposed to be the people who understand this stuff.  Instead they just all want to call Trump an ignorant dummy and continually underestimate him because they think there's no way he could be doing stuff like that on purpose.  Wadsworth.  Listen to me.  He IS doing this stuff on purpose.

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The drug trade in Mexico has nothing to do with NAFTA.  they had a great drug trade long before NAFTA. 


Mexican farmer's daughter: NAFTA destroyed us - CNN - Feb, 2017

NAFTA And The Drug Cartels: “A Deal Made In Narco Heaven” — Huffington Post - 08/01/2009

How the Cartels Were Born - Jacobin - May 2015

Farmers, unable to sustain themselves due to the removal of subsidies and the arrival of competition from US agri-corporations, found the burgeoning market for marijuana and poppies their only avenue to surviving on the land. The army of the urban unemployed gave the cartels a deep pool from which to recruit foot soldiers, and the miserably paid (and eminently corruptible) police and military provided the muscle with which to protect their interests.

Mexican farmers turn to opium poppies to meet surge in US heroin demand - Guardian - Feb 2015

From Maize to Haze: Agricultural Shocks and the Growth of the Mexican Drug Sector - Yale Study - April 2014

Using data on over 2200 municipios spanning 1990-2010, we show that lower prices differentially increased the cultivation of both marijuana and opium poppies in municipios more climatically suited to growing maize. This increase was accompanied by differentially lower rural wages, indicating that households were adversely affected by the lower return to maize farming. We also find impacts on downstream drug-trade outcomes, including the operations of drug cartels and killings perpetrated by these criminal groups. Our Öndings demonstrate that maize price changes contributed to the burgeoning drug trade in Mexico, and point to the violent consequences of an expanding drug sector.


Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Queshank
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #34 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Trump does not care about a free trade agreement. 


I think NAFTA has been a disaster. I think our current deals are a disaster. I'm a free trader. The problem with free trade is, you need smart people representing you. We have the greatest negotiators in the world, but we don't use them. We use political hacks and diplomats. We use the wrong people. Mexico is smart; they have out-negotiated us to a fare-thee-well.
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I'm totally against the trade bill for a number of reasons. I'm a free trader. But the problem with free trade is you need really talented people to negotiate for you. If you don't have people that know business, not just a political hack that got the job because he made a contribution to a campaign, free trade is terrible. Free trade can be wonderful if you have smart people, but we have people that are stupid. We have people that are controlled by special interests. And it's just not going to work
*****
Take China as an example. I have many friends, great manufacturers, they want to go into China. They can't. China won't let them. We talk about free trade. It's not free trade; it's stupid trade. China dumps everything that they have over here. No tax, no anything. We can't get into China. The best manufacturers, when they get in, they have to pay a tremendous tax.
- Donald Trump


Trump's stance on free trade has been (deliberately) misconstrued every single time.  The story goes ... we currently have free trade with these countries.  The canard is that NAFTA is free trade.  That's not true.  And it is within that context and that framework that Trump's opponents ... which happen to be most of the intelligentsia in America ... launch their salvos. 

I actually think Trump's tactics to try to eliminate tariffs in other countries stand a very good chance of failing.  Like I said earlier in the thread ... it's 50/50 at best.  But that's a coin toss of a bet to make by going all in opposing him IMO. 

Because while Trump seems to be the only one willing to point out how protectionist these other countries are, I think their devotion to their protectionist policies are so strong they're not going to give in no matter what.  Other countries are far more nationalistic than we are here in the US despite rumors to the contrary.  And especially not when these countries think our entire media is against Trump and going to crack the will of the American people to suffer some short term penalties for long term gain.  After all, if you call a 5%-15% exchange "free trade" long enough ... people start calling it free trade along with you.  What's that old saw about repeat a lie often enough people will believe it?  Oh boy do people believe it.  And Trump is far from the most credible champion for this crusade.

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He only cares about pocketing money for the Trumps and is using the presidency to do it. 


What about all those people mocking all the companies that have dropped Trump brands?  Someone on the left gleefully shared an article about how 15 out of 17 deals with The Trump Organization fell through.  How is that profiting off the presidency?

I'm not suggesting Trump is Cincinnatus ... taking a hit and serving his country.  But I am suggesting you gotta do better than simply say "Trump is making money off the presidency" and repeating it as if it's true when you have no idea.

Quote:
Take China for instance.  China is screwing us as far as trade goes, not Canada.  But China gave his daughter a deal.  Talking about blind partisanship.  It is plain to see what went down with Ivanka, ZTE and Africa.  But maybe you want to be blind.


What deal?  Because she got 7 new patents recently to add to the 24 she already had prior to Trump's presidency?  Why did they give her the other 24 if the only way her company could have possibly gotten these new patents was because Trump is president?  You're going to have to explain that one Wadsworth.

But I can't help but notice you've now adopted Trump's campaign rhetoric of China screwing us on trade ...

Quote:
  Yes Trump talks a lot of sh*t and the lambs follow.  Not knowing that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.


Would you normally characterize a wolf in sheep's clothing as a "moron?"  Does that fit with the mythology?

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #35 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:57pm
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NAFTA worked out tremendously well for the upper classes in both Mexico and the United States.

Unfortunately, while there was room for the United States's lower classes to survive because of our robust welfare system ... no such luck for Mexican peasants who rely on payments from illegal immigrants in the United States sent back to Mexico.

Carlos Slim and his peers made out like freakin bandits.  After all their industries were protected under NAFTA.  Jose Manstreet not so much.

Queshank
  

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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #36 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 4:17pm
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Queshank wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 4:31pm:
Jesus Christ there's a lot of stupid people in this country.

On Rachel Maddow last night they were talking about Trump meeting with Kim Jong Un giving him "legitimacy."  They went off at length about Trump saying "It's an 'honor' to meet with Kim Jong Un."  Trump just gave propaganda to North Korea!!!! 

Like North Korea is so important that it somehow matters.  The fact that they treat North Korea in this way demonstrates just how stupid the criticisms of "legitimacy" are.  North Korea attained "legitimacy" a long crappity smacking time ago.  Like ... in the 50s.  I don't understand wtf people are smoking.  And Ulysses... you know me!  I know smoking!

Did we consider an attack by North Korea a "legitimate" threat?

Yes, yes I believe all of our news media did.

Congratulations on legitimizing North Korea!  But don't let that stop you from bitching about it when other people do it.

They keep throwing this word around.  I don't think they know what it means.

The fact that the Kim family has kept 25 million people hostage for 70 years is legitimacy.

I just read Nicholas Kristoff's infantile article in the NY Times about how Trump Was Outfoxed in Singapore, wherein he states "Trump made a huge concession — the suspension of military exercises with South Korea. That’s on top of the broader concession of the summit meeting itself, security guarantees he gave North Korea and the legitimacy that the summit provides his counterpart, Kim Jong-un."

A huge concession?  The suspension of military exercises with South Korea isn't a "concession."  Jesus Christ.  How hard would it be to start them up again?  *snap finger* There.  The military exercises are back on.  What the hell? 

Also on Maddow last night, a guest panelist discussed how she hoped Trump didn't offer a peace treaty with North Korea before denuclearization.  Because then we'd undercut the reason for having troops in South Korea. 

We have something like 24,000 troops in South Korea.

We have nearly 40,000 in Japan.

We have 35,000 in Germany.

Where are the wars?  Or are we undercutting the reason for having troops in Germany by not starting one somewhere?

These people seem like petulant children.  They sit and measure any results based on what other presidents have been unable to extract.  Then they criticize Trump for not doing things exactly like the other presidents have done.

How dumb does one have to be not to recognize the stupidity in that position?

Queshank

- the liberal media doesn't know how silly they sound trying to criticize Trump on NK - they lack common sense - the sanctions are important and strong but the liberals talk about meaningless things
  

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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #37 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:15pm:
Oh of course they do.  I'm wildly entertained watching evangelicals contort themselves to reimagine Trump.  Almost as wildly entertained as I am watching leftists contort themselves to to reimagine Trump their way.


No you don't.  You see explanations from a more objective source for why Trump does the things he does, and warnings about why the left "reimagining" Trump works out in Trump's favor.

I support some of the things Trump wants to do. 

I want our troops returned home from around the world and to stop policing the world and if Trump manages to accomplish things there, kudos.  I want free trade not the supply side economics bullshit of NAFTA and the crime, drug trade and illegal immigration that came with it.  (Look into how NAFTA decimated the peasant farmers in Mexico and how they turned to growing drug crops or becoming footsoldiers in the cartels for employment sometime.) And I support Trump in renegotiating or perhaps pulling out of NAFTA altogether in exchange for more equitable trading arrangements.  And if he accomplishes it I'll cheer.  Our trade agreements in many cases are based on us giving favorable terms to foreign countries so they'll tolerate us maintaining forward bases to project American power around the world.  One of the most laughable myths that everyone just swallows because ... TRUMP! ... is the idea that Trump is protectionist and the rest of the Western world is free trade.  It's bullshit.

But I'll point out Wadsworth ... those are both leftist positions. 


That's a conversation for another thread.   Heidi Heitkamp anyone?

Queshank
Into what, not all of us are.  He is simply the President, not God.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #38 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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I also want to point out Q that not all Christians are Conservative in their political view, a misnomer by too many. Many in my church are Democrats and voted for Obama.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Legitimacy?
Reply #39 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 7:07pm
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Queshank wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
I think NAFTA has been a disaster. I think our current deals are a disaster. I'm a free trader. The problem with free trade is, you need smart people representing you. We have the greatest negotiators in the world, but we don't use them. We use political hacks and diplomats. We use the wrong people. Mexico is smart; they have out-negotiated us to a fare-thee-well.
*****
I'm totally against the trade bill for a number of reasons. I'm a free trader. But the problem with free trade is you need really talented people to negotiate for you. If you don't have people that know business, not just a political hack that got the job because he made a contribution to a campaign, free trade is terrible. Free trade can be wonderful if you have smart people, but we have people that are stupid. We have people that are controlled by special interests. And it's just not going to work
*****
Take China as an example. I have many friends, great manufacturers, they want to go into China. They can't. China won't let them. We talk about free trade. It's not free trade; it's stupid trade. China dumps everything that they have over here. No tax, no anything. We can't get into China. The best manufacturers, when they get in, they have to pay a tremendous tax.
- Donald Trump


Trump's stance on free trade has been (deliberately) misconstrued every single time.  The story goes ... we currently have free trade with these countries.  The canard is that NAFTA is free trade.  That's not true.  And it is within that context and that framework that Trump's opponents ... which happen to be most of the intelligentsia in America ... launch their salvos. 

I actually think Trump's tactics to try to eliminate tariffs in other countries stand a very good chance of failing.  Like I said earlier in the thread ... it's 50/50 at best.  But that's a coin toss of a bet to make by going all in opposing him IMO. 

Because while Trump seems to be the only one willing to point out how protectionist these other countries are, I think their devotion to their protectionist policies are so strong they're not going to give in no matter what.  Other countries are far more nationalistic than we are here in the US despite rumors to the contrary.  And especially not when these countries think our entire media is against Trump and going to crack the will of the American people to suffer some short term penalties for long term gain.  After all, if you call a 5%-15% exchange "free trade" long enough ... people start calling it free trade along with you.  What's that old saw about repeat a lie often enough people will believe it?  Oh boy do people believe it.  And Trump is far from the most credible champion for this crusade.


What about all those people mocking all the companies that have dropped Trump brands?  Someone on the left gleefully shared an article about how 15 out of 17 deals with The Trump Organization fell through.  How is that profiting off the presidency?

I'm not suggesting Trump is Cincinnatus ... taking a hit and serving his country.  But I am suggesting you gotta do better than simply say "Trump is making money off the presidency" and repeating it as if it's true when you have no idea.


What deal?  Because she got 7 new patents recently to add to the 24 she already had prior to Trump's presidency?  Why did they give her the other 24 if the only way her company could have possibly gotten these new patents was because Trump is president?  You're going to have to explain that one Wadsworth.

But I can't help but notice you've now adopted Trump's campaign rhetoric of China screwing us on trade ...


Would you normally characterize a wolf in sheep's clothing as a "moron?"  Does that fit with the mythology?

Queshank

Quoting Trump is meaningless.  He is not a man of his word.  You should know that by now.  It is a well known fact that China is screwing us and Canada is not.  Neither is Mexico. But Trump is not leaning on China anymore. But of course you don't question that.  You continue to make excuses for the Shi! he does.  You don't even question the patents Ivanka has gotten since her father has become president while she works in the White House.  I am concerned for you.  That is blind loyalty you have.
  

Jasmine wrote on May 6th, 2018 at 7:43pm:
Yes, I heard about this. Just goes to show McLame’s true loyalties. Hopefully, Trump won’t go to his funeral very, very soon.


TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2018 at 8:34pm:
I'll try but it might be beyond my ability. Insulting is "like 90% of what I do here."
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