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Seawolf
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Brooklyn Papyrus
Jul 1st, 2018 at 8:53am
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In our discussions about the Exodus someone said there is no evidence that the Israelites ever lived in Egypt preceeding the Exodus.  Sometimes I think we repeat what we have heard thinking it is sound without doing our research.  The Brooklyn Papyrus very strongly suggests that there were Hebrews before the Exodus.  This document was a list of slave names that contained Hebrew names. 

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...Any possible evidence of Hebrews living in Egypt must be prior to the time of the Exodus in order to maintain that the story recorded in the Bible is an accurate historical narrative. Approximately when might have the Exodus occurred? According to a reading of specific chronological information in the books of Kings, Judges, and Numbers, combined with chronological information from Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Hellenistic, and Roman documents, the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt occurred around the 1440s BC (1 Kings 6:1; Judges 11:26; Numbers 32:13; Ptolemy’s Canon; Neo-Assyrian Eponym List; Manetho’s King List; Uruk King List; Roman Consul Lists). This approximate date in the 1440s BC is a crucial chronological marker which restricts investigation of archaeological and historical material to a particular window of time. Prior to this date, one would expect evidence for Hebrews in Egypt and an Egyptian policy of slavery towards Asiatics or Semites, the larger ethnic groups to which the Hebrews belonged, if the Exodus account is historical. According to the narrative in the Bible, near the end of the Patriarchal period calculated at approximately 1680 BC, Jacob and his family had settled into the northeastern Nile Delta region known as Goshen with their livestock and various possessions (Genesis 46:6, 47:1). Earlier, Abraham had resided temporarily in Egypt but he moved back to Canaan for the remainder of his life (Genesis 12:10-13:1). Around the time of these patriarchs, during the periods called the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period in Egypt and the Middle Bronze Age in Canaan, many people from western Asia or Canaan immigrated into Egypt. A famous contemporary depiction and description of this immigration was found painted on one of the walls of the tomb of Khnumhotep II in Beni Hasan, Egypt. The scene, paired with a text, depicts a group of 37 Semites from Canaan—men, women, and children, along with their livestock and supplies—immigrating into middle Egypt during the early 19th century BC.

While this would be slightly earlier than when Joseph and subsequently his father Jacob arrive in Egypt, the events occur in the same general historical period. According to archaeological excavations and information derived from various ancient documents and art work, during this time large numbers of people from western Asia immigrated into Egypt and settled primarily in the Nile Delta region, just as Jacob and his family also did. Following this period, the Egyptian Pharaoh Ahmose I retook Lower Egypt and began enslaving Semites or “Asiatics”—an Egyptian designation for people from the area of greater Canaan which would have included the Hebrews and other tribal groups (Exodus 1:6-14). The transition from a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph to the forced labor of the Hebrews and other Semites seems to fit the transition from the rule of the Hyksos to the 18th Dynasty and the subsequent policy of forced labor upon Asiatics and other non-Egyptians. Papyri such as Leningrad Papyrus 1116A from the 18th Dynasty, probably the reign of Pharaoh Thutmose III prior to around 1450 BC, specifies that immigrant people were subjected to compulsory labor such as public building projects after the expulsion of the Hyksos under Pharaoh Ahmose I and subsequent rulers. This would be exactly the time of the enslavement of the Hebrews....
http://apxaioc.com/article/hebrews-egypt-exodus-evidence-papyrus-brooklyn
  


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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2018 at 11:17am
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"strongly suggest" ?

suggestions are cool, you can do so much with them. Kelleyannieannie's description as alternative facts works as a so-so definition, but I prefer "multidirectional facts".

  

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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2018 at 3:17pm
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billy.pilgrim wrote on Jul 1st, 2018 at 11:17am:
"strongly suggest" ?

suggestions are cool, you can do so much with them. Kelleyannieannie's description as alternative facts works as a so-so definition, but I prefer "multidirectional facts".


Because our history of the empire of Egypt is by no means complete.  We do not have a complete history with accurate timelines.  So a papyrus with Hebrew names of slaves is a STRONG indication that there were a Hebrew people as described by the Bible as evidence to confirm the story of the Exodus.

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The dates for Pharaohs and even the existence of the Pharaohs themselves from this period are often tentative and highly disputed, so it is difficult to date anything with absolute certainty. However, the papyrus does contain the name of a Pharaoh called “Sobekhotep” who may have reigned around either the late 18th or the 17th century BC.


To say there is no evidence of the Exodus is not an accurate remark.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #3 - Jul 2nd, 2018 at 9:38am
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 1st, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Because our history of the empire of Egypt is by no means complete.  We do not have a complete history with accurate timelines.  So a papyrus with Hebrew names of slaves is a STRONG indication that there were a Hebrew people as described by the Bible as evidence to confirm the story of the Exodus.


To say there is no evidence of the Exodus is not an accurate remark.



Imagine if a bunch of marauding nomads with no respect for boundaries and property ownership were destroying, raping and murdering their way across the ME today.
  

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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #4 - Jul 2nd, 2018 at 12:15pm
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No need for validation, just to prove that your only rebuttal is simply to dismiss it because it does not fit your narrative.  There is no honest discussion and again, an atheist who obsesses over the discussion of a Creator more then I do about the denial of God. Why don't you start an atheist forum for a change?  It seems we have enough, so called atheist to start your own forum.  Send Admin a pm stating that you desire an atheist forum.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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EF
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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #5 - Jul 3rd, 2018 at 12:32pm
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Reasonable article:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-...

This paragraph is a pretty good executive summary:

It certainly is exciting when the archaeological record matches with the Biblical account [of the Exodus] —as with the examples described here. However, while this evidence certainly adds weight to the historical accuracy of elements of the Biblical account, it can’t be used to “prove” that every detail of the Exodus story in the Bible is true.

This'n's pretty good, too:

https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction

  

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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #6 - Jul 3rd, 2018 at 2:49pm
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EF wrote on Jul 3rd, 2018 at 12:32pm:
Reasonable article:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-...

This paragraph is a pretty good executive summary:

It certainly is exciting when the archaeological record matches with the Biblical account [of the Exodus] —as with the examples described here. However, while this evidence certainly adds weight to the historical accuracy of elements of the Biblical account, it can’t be used to “prove” that every detail of the Exodus story in the Bible is true.

This'n's pretty good, too:

https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction


Thanks for the link.  The Bible is all we have that really gives us any account of the Exodus.  It is improbable that we will find any detailed accounts outside of scripture.  Sporadic findings that supports certain parts of the story help to add credibility to the story.  Just as we do not have a complete history of Egypt, findings throughout time help to build and substantiate stories of that civilization.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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EF
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Re: Brooklyn Papyrus
Reply #7 - Jul 3rd, 2018 at 5:23pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2018 at 2:49pm:
Thanks for the link.  The Bible is all we have that really gives us any account of the Exodus.  It is improbable that we will find any detailed accounts outside of scripture.  Sporadic findings that supports certain parts of the story help to add credibility to the story.  Just as we do not have a complete history of Egypt, findings throughout time help to build and substantiate stories of that civilization.


IMO, no credibility need be added.  The entire OT is the progressive revelation of God to the people of the time of the writing of its various parts and not necessarily a literal, factual, historical account in all respects.  It all points to the coming of Christ and reveals the attributes of God that God wished to reveal.  I do not get hung up on every jot and tittle being literally true and think those who do are misusing it.

Here's more: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/articles_exodus.html

final paragraphs:

The Hebrew text of Exodus 12:41 states; "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," but the Hebrew text can also be translate as "about six hundred chiefs (eleph) on foot are the warriors apart from the children" (The Hebrew word eleph can mean "thousand" or "chief," compare Strong's #s 441, 504 and 505). We now have a group of warriors that would find the 600 chariots of Pharaoh a formidable army. If we also assume that each chief (head of the family) included a wife and 5 children we have about 6,000 people, which correlate with previous calculation of possible descendants from Levi to the exodus.

Translating the word eleph as "chiefs" will also work for the census records found in the book of Numbers.

RSV Numbers 1:21 the number of the tribe of Reuben was forty-six thousand five hundred.

The Hebrew of this passage could also be translated as; "The number for the tribe of Rueben is 46 chiefs and 500". With this alternate translation we have 46 chiefs and 500 family members. When we apply this method to the remainder of the tribes we come to a total number of 598 chiefs and 5,550 others.

In summary, it would appear that the slavery of the Israelites in Egypt lasted about 130 years and approximately 6,000 individuals traveled from Egypt to Mt. Sinai.


« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2018 at 5:49pm by EF »  

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