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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe? (Read 1,938 times)
Seawolf
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #110 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:54pm
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Demos wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Which is what?  

When I ask about NATO spending/costs, you try to shift the debate to this. Or you want to ask my position about Bush's spending. Or Obama's. Rather than addressing the points and concerns raised about NATO spending and how that actually impacts our costs.

How about we actually have an honest discussion about that in which you actually address the issues/concerns raised: namely that increasing spending means nothing for our costs if the spending isn't directed towards actual hardware, etc. That 2 percent mark doesn't mean much if the spending isn't being directed towards things which allow us to actually reduce our spending (presumably in order to keep NATO doing what it's doing).

Let me propose that rather then we spend, if I recall, 700 billion to NATO's 200 billion we reverse that.  After all, that is their backyard, yes?  You see, I do not see hundred's of billions of dollars a small change like you do.  I have already stated that what Trump is doing is looking at the money going out and trying to rectify this.  NEITHER  Reps OR Dems have EVER tried this.  So why would you oppose what Trump is trying to do?  No one is spending more on our defense, I can't understand why we are now liable for the bulk of Europe's defense.  Please help me to understand.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #111 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:56pm
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I am trying to talk about ALL the issues you are having with Trump to include tariffs, NATO, NAFTA and the GW agreement.  Honestly, what do you think is the combined cost of all these issues together?
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

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Seawolf
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #112 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:57pm
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I honestly know I am pissing in the wind trying to have an honest discussion about what Trump is doing in the grand scheme.  I am out of time since I have a patient to visit.  Enjoy your day Demos.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

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Demos
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #113 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
Let me propose that rather then we spend, if I recall, 700 billion to NATO's 200 billion we reverse that.  After all, that is their backyard, yes?

Fine. How do you accomplish that? Is the 2 percent mark really the way to do that if they're not spending the money on equipment, research and development, intelligence capabilities, etc.? If they meet the mark by increasing spending in the personnel area, is that really going to help reverse anything? Maybe the 2 percent mark isn't the best measure here.

Quote:
You see, I do not see hundred's of billions of dollars a small change like you do.

Roll Eyes 

Quote:
I have already stated that what Trump is doing is looking at the money going out and trying to rectify this... Please help me to understand.

I've raised concerns about this in each of my posts. Not sure how else to explain this to you. If the focus is simply on whether or not they're spending 2 percent of GDP, then that seems to be the wrong focus, because of the issues raised in my posts.
  
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #114 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 2:19pm
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Other things that happened at the NATO summit aside from arguments about defense spending...

Quote:
Behind closed doors, NATO leaders — Trump included — agreed to big strides on counterterrorism, new troop commitments, reforming its command structures, and boosting defense spending. Experts described the decisions as impressive for a sprawling bureaucracy that requires painstaking consensus among all 29 members...

U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May announced that Britain will be deploying an additional 440 troops to Afghanistan to help the country fight the Islamic State and the Taliban, almost doubling its commitment to the NATO-led mission, called Resolute Support.

Meanwhile, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Canada will lead a new NATO training mission in Iraq. He said up to 250 Canadian troops will deploy to Baghdad to help train and professionalize the ranks of Iraqi armed forces as they continue to battle Islamic State militants.

Canada’s new defense policy includes an increase of over 70 percent of the nation’s defense budget between 2016 and 2026, according to a press release from the Canadian government...

NATO also announced it would open two new command structures that will involve 1,200 new personnel. One is expected to be based in Norfolk, Virginia, to address maritime threats with an eye toward Russia. The other will be centered in Germany to focus on the vast logistical undertaking of moving troops and equipment around Europe to support military exercises aimed at deterring Russia.

The alliance also agreed to a new goal, dubbed in NATO jargon as the “four 30s”: to deploy 30 battalions, 30 aircraft squadrons, and 30 warships within 30 days of any crisis...

Finally, NATO formally invited Macedonia, the small Balkan country that recently resolved a bitter name dispute with neighboring Greece, to begin talks to join the alliance...

Source
  
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #115 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:37pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 2:00pm:
No you are simply dodging.  You are here because you hate Trump, and this thread is all about that.  You do not wish to engage in an honest dialogue of what all of our spending for NATO, NAFTA, and Tariffs are costing us.  It cost us money and it is not cheap.



Your defence costs are not dead money and they are not in any sense altruistic.


I keep making this point and American conservatives refuse to grasp it or even recognise it.


You spend such a lot on your military- far, far more, absurdly more- than you need to for some simple reasons.

1. It buys you political primacy in the West.

2. It gives your military industries leverage in foreign markets (these two work together).

3. Your domestic politics is partly fed and watered in the soil of military dominance globally.

4. In the unlikely event of a major war with either Russia or China, your projected forces will keep much of the violence on other nations’ territory.


Whining about the spend ignores what it’s buying. If what it’s buying isn’t what you want, surrender your leadership position to the next global leader.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #116 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:46pm
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Limey. wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:37pm:
Your defence costs are not dead money and they are not in any sense altruistic.


I keep making this point and American conservatives refuse to grasp it or even recognise it.


You spend such a lot on your military- far, far more, absurdly more- than you need to for some simple reasons.

1. It buys you political primacy in the West.

2. It gives your military industries leverage in foreign markets (these two work together).

3. Your domestic politics is partly fed and watered in the soil of military dominance globally.

4. In the unlikely event of a major war with either Russia or China, your projected forces will keep much of the violence on other nations’ territory.


Whining about the spend ignores what it’s buying. If what it’s buying isn’t what you want, surrender your leadership position to the next global leader.


Well said.

It's the ONLY Federal Department that conservatives think is underfunded. Everything else can go, but the military is sacrosanct and merely mentioning it in an unfavorable fashion will trigger great rage from right wing snowflakes.

But yeah, it's big, bad and by design...

I had high hopes for our new POTUS, and still do actually. A Dem would be thingy-blocked by the GOP if trying to reign it in. The GOP would never shrink it as it's become their touchstone of national health. But Trump? He could do it. The GOP would bend over for him (as they have for the past 18 months, lol) but the Dems (my party) would probably resist as it's him. :/
  

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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #117 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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Luther wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 4:37am:
Can we not defend the U.S. with just a push of a button from here or a Nuclear submarine somewhere?



We also defend the world's economic interests, trade routes and such.
  
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #118 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:47pm
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JustTheFacts wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:31pm:
We also defend the world's economic interests, trade routes and such.



As did the British Empire prior to your grandparents cleaning out every penny in British coffers as the price of joining WWII.


Which manoeuvre neatly took the cream from our ‘altruistic’ operation of 100 years and funded your takeover of that position.
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: - what percent of NATO does the US pay to defend Europe?
Reply #119 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:28pm
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Limey. wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:47pm:
As did the British Empire prior to your grandparents cleaning out every penny in British coffers as the price of joining WWII.


Which manoeuvre neatly took the cream from our ‘altruistic’ operation of 100 years and funded your takeover of that position.


Sorry we didn't support one of your European wars for free.  A lot of the world's problems have come from European malfeasance.  Not only your endless wars about whether the border is here or there between your countries, but the endless strife that is consequent to you former colonial empires, continuing to the present day.  If I remember correctly, the EU GDP is about the same as the US.  You have more people.  There's no reason why you can't take on ALL of your defense.
  
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