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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection (Read 937 times)
FEZZILLA
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Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Jul 13th, 2018 at 5:15am
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The follow topic deals with ultimate proofs of Christ' resurrection which we can see and observe with our own eyes. Isaiah chapter 60 is confirmed to exist before the Christian era, so atheists cannot do the usual and accuse Christians of interpolations as is their usual excuse when historical debates aren't going well for them.
No matter how strong the facts are, if one is not interested in evidence or proof of God they will reject all of it. This will only convince those who are searching for answers. A knowledge of history will help you understand this prophecy. This prophecy contains three major features which are fulfilled in chronological order:

1 - The rise of the Christian nations (Isaiah 60:3).

2 - The invention and use of air travel (Isaiah 60:8).

3- The return of Israel back to their homeland and how the Christian nations show love to them and help rebuild their nation. (Isaiah 60:10).

Isaiah 60:8,

“Who are these who fly like a cloud,
And like doves to their roosts?" (NKJV).


The Believer's Bible Commentary, which is one of the most acclaimed commentaries on the Bible in existence, interprets this verse properly:

"60:8, 9 Plane-loads of Israel's sons and exiles return to Israel like flocks of birds, along with large ships bringing their accumulated wealth with them."

The NLT places the entire verse in the context it was meant for:

“And what do I see flying like clouds to Israel,
like doves to their nests?"


The reason why Isaiah ends the verse with a question mark is because the prophecy was not meant for his generation to understand. It was meant for a certain time when people would be able to understand the verse. The key verse in understanding verse 8 is verse 3:

"The Gentiles shall come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising."


The prophecy of verse 8 could not ever have been fulfilled until verse 3 was fulfilled. The Gentiles began to come to the light during the ministry of Christ' Apostles. As the Gospel spread throughout the Gentile world, we see the first king accept Christ as his Savior. From Constantine to Charlemagne there is no doubt that Christianity has spread far and wide throughout the Gentile nations. The discovery of America is the complete fulfillment of the prophecy in verse 3. In this Christian nation, two brothers from Ohio invent the first airplane. This invention would eventually be used to fly Jews back to their homeland like doves to their young ones (i.e, "nest" or "roost", though the ancient expression is "young ones").

“The sons of foreigners shall build up your walls,
And their kings shall minister to you;
For in My wrath I struck you,
But in My favor I have had mercy on you" (Isa.60:10).


After the Jews fly back to Israel they have to rebuild their new lives there. Thus, the Gentile Christian nations helped them rebuild their nation. So this here is another prophecy fulfilled in chronological order.

So for those looking for historical and scientific proof for the resurrection of Jesus Christ the proof is found in this very observable prophecy. Its a prophecy that basically says that the religion who builds the airplane is the true religion.

Isaiah 60 Outline:

Verses 1 & 2: Christ' resurrection & ascension

Verse 3: Gentile nations and their kings turn to the light of Christ and become Christian nations.

Verse 4-7: Quality of life increases, trade and travel become easier.

Verse 8: Airplane invented by Christians in a gentile Christian nation is used to fly Jews back to Israel.

Verse 9: These Jews come from afar and from various places of the globe, bringing their accumulated wealth back to their homeland.

Verse 10: Gentile Christian nations show love for Israel and help rebuild their walls.

The last few verses of this chapter fulfill when Jesus returns and we live in eternity prepared for us by Christ. Therefore this chapter 60 in Isaiah doesn't have en ending as eternity never ends. The chapter begins with Christ' resurrection, goes throughout all history up to the 2nd coming, and continues throughout all eternity.

There is more passages from the Torah which strongly support verse 10.

For those of you getting pounced on by radical skeptics, you can feel refreshed in your soul to know that this Jesus whom you've accepted is indeed the risen Christ and your faith in Him is not in vain. So worship the Lord with love and reverence and keep His commandments and the testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is risen!
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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FEZZILLA
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #1 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 6:12am
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Maybe I should have posted this in the Christian section? If he moderator wants to move there than that's fine with me. I honestly didn't see the Christian section at first. Been a while since I've been on this forum.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Seawolf
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #2 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 8:57am
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FEZZILLA wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 6:12am:
Maybe I should have posted this in the Christian section? If he moderator wants to move there than that's fine with me. I honestly didn't see the Christian section at first. Been a while since I've been on this forum.

You are fine but expect some nasty remarks and intolerance.  Just so you know.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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FEZZILLA
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #3 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 8:57am:
You are fine but expect some nasty remarks and intolerance.  Just so you know.


It's all good, Seawolf. I'm used to mockers. They are also mentioned in prophecy.  Wink
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #4 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
It's all good, Seawolf. I'm used to mockers. They are also mentioned in prophecyWink


Talk about self-fulfilling!
  

When Q hears gallop noises he doesn't think zebras; he thinks there's a Democrat behind a curtain, making gallop noises.
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FEZZILLA
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #5 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:00pm
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BowHunter wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
Talk about self-fulfilling!


If antichrists (militant unbelievers against Christ) are the ones who fulfill End Time prophecy, then no one can accuse Christians of fulfilling them. Makes sense? As of right now End Time prophecy is being rapidly fulfilled by militant atheists (and their antichrist allies).

As for the OP of this discussion, it would be hard to self-fulfill the prophecy of the airplane especially when the ancient Christians did not understand it.

Here is Isaiah 60:8 quoted by 4th century Bishop Ambrose in his book On Virginity, translated by Daniel Callam. Ambrose here misinterprets Isa.60:8 but in his mistake reveals the shape of the earth.

“For the soul has its flights, as has been said: “Who are these that fly like clouds and like doves with their young?” You see, the soul has spiritual flights which, in a brief moment, circle the whole globe” (XVII.108).

I'm gonna assume you read post #1 of the OP so I do not have to repeat points made there. Ambrose did not understand the verse because it was not meant for his generation to understand, since it dealt with a future invention that was still over 1000 years away from the time of Ambrose. But Ambrose did understand simple doctrine very well And if you are wondering how Ambrose knew we lived on a globe in the 4th century then here is where he got his source of information.

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).


But back to Ambrose' comment about souls doing a few laps around the earth before returning to God. Since Ambrose had no idea what an airplane was, he had to guess v.8 which did not fit into the context of the passage. In fact, it is so outta context that verse 7, 9, 10, are in stark contrast to verse 8. So lets have some fun and compare contextual meanings. I'll contextual translate Ambrose in verse 8 and the real meaning to see which best fits.

Isaiah 60:7-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you,
The rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
They shall ascend with acceptance on My altar,
And I will glorify the house of My glory.

8 "The soul has spiritual flights which, in a brief moment, circle the whole globe”
9 Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me;
And the ships of Tarshish will come first,
To bring your sons from afar,
Their silver and their gold with them,
To the name of the Lord your God,
And to the Holy One of Israel,
Because He has glorified you.
10 “The sons of foreigners shall build up your walls,
And their kings shall minister to you;
For in My wrath I struck you,
But in My favor I have had mercy on you.


And again,


7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you,
The rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
They shall ascend with acceptance on My altar,
And I will glorify the house of My glory.

8 “Plane-loads of Israel's sons and exiles return to Israel like flocks of birds."
9 Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me;
And the ships of Tarshish will come first,
To bring your sons from afar,
Their silver and their gold with them,
To the name of the Lord your God,
And to the Holy One of Israel,
Because He has glorified you.
10 “The sons of foreigners shall build up your walls,
And their kings shall minister to you;
For in My wrath I struck you,
But in My favor I have had mercy on you.


As you can see there is no hint of death in the context, therefore there is no need to interpret v.8 as souls doing a few laps around the earth as Ambrose misinterpreted (no ill towards Ambrose). The passage deals with human beings and includes human forms of transportation -- travel and trade. It is not about death or the soul and therefore Ambrose is out of context, whereas the airplane fits the context perfectly.

Remember that v.3 is the key to solving the passage. You cannot interpret the passage correctly without a clear understanding of the 3rd verse. Ambrose understood v.3 but did not live in a time where he could understand the entire prophecy. But today we see more clearly into the prophecy and having a better grasp on both v.3 and v.8., revealing first the rise of the gentile nations before the invention and use of the airplane. So while Ambrose was part of the rise of the gentile nations who come to Christ, the prophecy was still considered in its infancy until A.D. 800, at the crowning of king Charlemagne. And even then verse 8 is still not understood. But by 1948, v.10 is very clear and fulfilled by v.8.



  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #6 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:42pm
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It is utterly bonkers to read "fly" in a 2300 year-old poem and think "airplane".

If you're going to interpret the prophecy that literally, then unfortunately the prophecy is wrong.  Airplanes do not fly "as a cloud".  Clouds are moved by the wind, airplanes fly by creating drag and lift over their wings.  Similarly, doves fly by flapping their wings, not by generating airflow over their wings by propeller or jet engine.

You can't have it both ways.  Either it's poetic or it's literal.  You should go with poetic.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #7 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:52pm
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Running Deer wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:42pm:
It is utterly bonkers to read "fly" in a 2300 year-old poem and think "airplane".

If you're going to interpret the prophecy that literally, then unfortunately the prophecy is wrong.  Airplanes do not fly "as a cloud".  Clouds are moved by the wind, airplanes fly by creating drag and lift over their wings.  Similarly, doves fly by flapping their wings, not by generating airflow over their wings by propeller or jet engine.

You can't have it both ways.  Either it's poetic or it's literal.  You should go with poetic.


Its very clearly figurative. How do I know that? Because it does not literally say airplane. Why don't it literally say airplane? Because airplane is a modern English word, not know to the ancient Hebrew vocabulary. So Isaiah actually described the prophecy with a question mark so future readers would know what it is to our benefit.

All figurative language has a literal meaning. Nothing is written in the Bible that is meaningless. There is no tradition of meaningless rants in the Bible and all Scripture has always been treated with great care to prevent misunderstanding. Every parable of Jesus had a literal meaning even though the parables were all figurative speech. We still use plenty of figurative speech today and yet we always have a literal meaning behind our words. Likewise with the Prophet Isaiah. So if you are reading ancient Hebrew like a modern English textbook on science then you are not being fair minded and someone who cannot be fair minded when reading the Bible will never understand any of it.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Supporting prophecies for Jews return to Israel in 1948
Reply #8 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 11:56pm
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Isaiah 60:10 is well supported by other amazing prophecies in the Torah. But this requires a little reading if one wants to understand any of this.

These first two prophecies are about the scattering of the Jews all over the world, from one end of the earth to the other.

Leviticus 26:33-35 New King James Version (NKJV)

33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.


This prophecy was not fulfilled until A.D.70., as the land of Israel was to become desolate. Israel was never desolate until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. The following link is a very long passage but most important to understand, as it is in context with the prophecy above.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.28.15-68&version=NKJV

Here again the Jews would be scattered all over the world and Israel would no longer be the home of the Jews. God knew from the time of the Exodus that the Jews were a stiff necked people as this passage clearly says. When the Jews killed God the Son that was the last straw and God delivered them over to their enemies and this time they would be scattered all over the world and for a prolonged period of time as the prophecy says. They would go mad and worship other gods. This is clearly fulfilled with the Bolshevik revolution which were atheist Jews who wanted for worship the state and a dictator over God. Then there are clear references to Nazi Germany right here in the Torah!

The last verse of the above link is also important to understand. When the Romans came in and destroyed Jerusalem, they slaughtered thousands of Jews and enslaved the survivors. These same survivors were sold as slaves to Egypt to work the mines...just as it is written in the Torah would happen to them!

But two chapters later, we also see how God will bless Israel after He struck them (Isaiah 60:10).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.30%3A1-10&version=NKJV

Here the Jews return and bless their land which produce is included in the blessing.

When the Jews returned to Israel in 1948, they turned the desolate land, a dry rocky wasteland, into a green oasis!

So from these passages alone, beginning in A.D.70, we read about the scattering of the Jews from one end of the earth to the other. We so how they were at many times oppressed after this scattering. And while not all Jewish history is full of oppression, we do see how the madness of the Jews, being disconnected from God, drove many of them to insanity which rose up communism which is madness. Nazi Germany took a toll on the Jews as 6-million of them were mercilessly exterminated.  Though after the War the Jews returned to Israel and this time blessed. The curses of Deut.28:15-68 will not be placed on all those nations who hate Israel.

So the prophecies are authentic and fulfilled. Thousands of years of world history in the Bible and Isaiah chapter 60 starts at the resurrection and ascension of Christ and continues throughout eternity.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Historical & Scientific Proof of Jesus' Resurrection
Reply #9 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 5:56pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:52pm:
So if you are reading ancient Hebrew like a modern English textbook on science


Excellent.  So you're not a Young Earth creationist.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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