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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth? (Read 937 times)
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #10 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 5:44pm
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Semi-Omnipotent wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 10:32am:
That's funny coming from you.. 

I have yet to see you EVER use scripture in the context it was written.  School me some time. Wink
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #11 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:35pm
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The big problem with atheists is that they don't want to know how to understand the Bible for what it's actually saying. They don't want to be bothered by the definition of a Hebrew word because they'd much rather come up with their own definition of Hebrew words which stray far from the intended meaning.

But lets not be too harsh on atheists for their reluctance to understand the Bible. You'd be surprised to know about all the mistakes done by the Geneva scholars who lost much meaning in translation. And while the KJV is a great translation with its strong points, it does, unfortunately, read 90% like the Geneva Bible, losing the meanings of importance passages that were once understood by the more disciplined and professional scholars such as William Tyndale and his close and trusted friends like Myles Coverdale, John Rogers, Thomas Cranmer and Thomas Cromwell. Had the Roman Catholic influenced Anglicans at the time not executed Tyndale, Rogers, Cranmer and Cromwell, we would not ever be debating this issue or other hotly debated issues.

There is another word that means globe in the Bible. The phrase translated as "round world" in the Tyndale influenced Bibles were all removed by the Geneva scholars. Yet the lexicons all strongly support Tyndale.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #12 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:43pm
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The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture, Part 1

All verses quoted are from Tyndale influenced Bibles, with the Matthew's Bible being the most dominant.

Psalms 89:11 (v.12 in some Bibles):

1535 Coverdale Bible,

Quote:
"The heaues are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundacio of the roude worlde and all that therin is."

1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible,

Quote:
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."

1539 Great Bible,

Quote:
"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is."

1568 Bishop's Bible,

Quote:
"The heauens are thine, the earth also is thine: thou hast layde the foundation of the rounde worlde, and of all the plentie that is therin."


Psalm 18:15,

1539 Great Bible: Quote:
"The sprynges of waters were sene, & the foundacions of the round worlde were discouered at thy chydinge, O Lorde, at the blastynge of the breth of thy displeasure."

Proverbs 8:31,

1568 Bishop's Bible: Quote:
"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men."


Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

Quote:
"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

Quote:
TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

Quote:
"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."

  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #13 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:48pm
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The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture, part 2.

The meaning is not lost and the lexicons prove this point for us. Even in the KJV it is speaking about the complete fullness of the world God created. But Tyndale, being the brilliant scholar he was, knew how important "round world" would be to English speaking readers, as the text does imply the whole of the earth, and its round shape (globe).
=======================================
A Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So where do we see flat earth?
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #14 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:55pm
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The Spinning Globe Post, Part 1

Job 38:14, The Rotation of the earth

Quote:
“It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment” (KJV)

Other Translations:

Quote:
“It is turned as clay to fashion, and all stand up as a garment” (1599 Geneva Bible).

Quote:
“It is turned like clay by the seal,
and it stands out as a garment” (MEV)


Quote:
[quote]“It turneth itself as clay of a seal And they station themselves as clothed” (YLT).


So it [the earth] is turning in a full rotation facing the dayspring (v.12). Henry Morris hammers this one down very well in his classic work The Remarkable Record of Job, p.40,

Quote:
"Job suggests not only that the earth was suspended in space but also that it rotates about its north-projecting axis. “Hast thou commanded the morning since they days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth; that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; they stand out as a garment” (Job 38:12-14). Though figurative language, this reflects a true physical process. God is pictured as taking hold of the two ends of the earth’s axis and turning it as if it were a clay cylinder receiving an impression from a seal. The seal toward which the earth is turned, however, is not a metallic pattern. Rather, it is the “dayspring,” evidently the sun fixed in its place.”


The Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote:
“38:14 turned. This figurative expression refers to God’s initiation of the earth’s rotation and the day-night cycle. Each night, like a rotating clay cylinder exposing the impressions of the seal, the earth turns to the sun (or “dayspring”), exposing the wicked and their works of the night.”


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Bible Commentary, Vol.2,

Quote:
“14. Explaining the first clause of v.13, as v.15 does the second clause. As the plastic clay represents the various figures impressed on it by a seal, so the earth, which in the dark was void of all form, when illuminated by the day-spring, presents a variety of forms, hills, valleys, etc. “Turned” (‘turns itself’,’ Hebrew) alludes to the rolling cylinder seal, from one to three inches long, such as is found in Babylon, which leaves the impression on the soft plastic clay, as it is turned about: so the morning light rolling on over the earth. Rich (‘On the Ruins of Babylon’) in Barnes, says, ‘The cuneiform writing of these cylinder seals is reversed, or written from right to left, whereas every other cuneiform writing is to be read from left to right. This can only be accounted for by supposing that they were intended to roll impressions.’ they stand--the forms of beauty unfolded by the dawn stand forth as a garment in which the earth is clad.”


The Bible Knowledge Commentary, 1885 Edition
Quote:
“38:12-15. God’s control of the earth also includes the daily sequence of dawn and darkness. The dawn causes the wicked, who are active at night (cf. 24:14-17; John 3:19), to hide. It is as if the morning light were shaking them out of a blanket (Job 38:13), causing them to be broken in their power (upraised arm, v. 15; cf. 40:9). As the sun comes up the earth’s contours become evident and the wicked no longer have darkness, which they call their light, in which to work. Since Job had nothing to do with establishing or controlling this aspect of Creation how could he question God’s doings now?”


The language of Job 38:12-15 is deeply figurative but the rotation of the earth can be clearly seen as well as the sun’s stationary position in the solar system, making this passage stand out as a garment of light to those who seek the depth of truth which turns in it’s revolution out of the darkness. This passage also helps interpret Job 26:10 “the boundary of light and darkness.”

*Note: figurative language is used to capture a deeper spiritual meaning. 
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #15 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 7:04pm
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The spinning Globe Post, Part 2

Early Church Fathers on the Rotation of the Earth.

The first quotations come from 4th century St.Ambrose from his work called the "Hexameron", from The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage.

Quote:
“Consequently, the year, too, has the stamp of a world coming to birth, as the splendor of the springtime shines forth all the more clearly because of the winter’s ice and darkness now past. The shape of the circles of years to come has been given form by the first dawn of the world” (p.12).


The circle of years. That sounds like a spinning globe to me.

This next quotation from St.Ambrose is long but necessary for this subject. Here Ambrose defines what immovable earth means while also quoting from a Psalm in which the earth is moving! Ambrose is explaining how the earth abides by the laws ordained for it by God, that it will not fall down (since it is suspended in space, Job 26:7). The earth will not float away. It is a fixed sphere and will not move from its ordained laws.

Quote:
“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (pp.22-23).


Quote:
“However, in the circular quality of a sphere these elements are confused and lose the impulse of their course, inasmuch as a sphere is turned around in its orb and hence the elements above change place with the elements beneath and vise-versa” (p.23).


The circular quality of a sphere [Strong’s H2328 - H2329]. This sphere is turned (Job 38:14). We can see how Ambrose is reading and interpreting Scripture.

The next citation from Ambrose’ Hexameron deals with how the skeptics of the Bible claim that the earth cannot be a sphere because water could not remain on it.

Quote:
“And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?” (p.52).

In the next quotation Ambrose begins the paragraph with “Scripture points out”, and then cites from Isa.40:22,

Quote:
“And further on: ‘Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?’ Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (p.231).

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

Quote:
“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).


And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 7:48pm
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The Spinning Globe Post, Part 3.

Clement of Rome was a 1st century Church father who was consecrated by St.Peter and mentioned by St.Paul in Philippians 4:3:

Quote:
And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.


Clement is the first successor of the Apostles who became the Bishop of the church in Rome. Some Roman Catholics call Clement the first Pope but this is not true. They did not have Popes back then. But they did have a Bishop for each city where there was a Christian church. So Clement was the first Bishop after the Apostles.

In Clement's Epistle, we read about a round earth that rotates with people living on opposite earth.

The first quote is about the earth's rotation:

Quote:
"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:2, p.22).


The next quote indirectly mentions antipodes which means he is speaking about a globe earth.

Quote:
"The ocean, impassible for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:8, p.22).


Origen explains Clement's comment here:

Quote:
“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).


Augustine also indirectly mentions this passage in his book City of God and does not believe that antipodes exist. He was proven wrong by Columbus who validated the 1st century Clement's words on the matter.

Clement has one more round earth statement in his Epistle.

Quote:
“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 33:3, p.22).


So even in the earliest century of Christ the Christians understood the Scriptures as teaching globe earth.

But even 1st century Jewish Historian mentions the round shape of the earth.

Quote:
“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute modern liberal theology. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement!

« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2018 at 7:56pm by FEZZILLA »  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 8:03pm
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I hope all this explains the globe earth teachings of the Bible. Its a matter of know the correct interpretation and what we find from reputable scholars of modern times and from 2000 years of tradition is globe earth. There is no flat earth tradition. The atheist historians are wrong!
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #18 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:44am
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FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 1:45pm:
The Hebrew chuwg in Job 26:10 and Isaiah 40:22 is meant to be understood as a 3D circle. The same Hebrew word translates to globus in Latin and sphere & orb in other languages.


The word chuwg is used 6 times in the bible.  Each to describe a flat geometrical shape such as a coin ..

He has inscribed a circle (chug) on the face of the waters
at the boundary between light and darkness.

-Job 26:10

When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle (chug) on the face of the deep,

when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,

-Prov. 8:27-28

It is he who sits above the circle (chug) of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;

who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

-Isa. 40:22


It might be interesting to mention at this point that curtains are of course flat also.. Makes sense in that the 'curtain' is said to be spread over a flat Earth.


It's simple ridiculous to assume that bronze age goat herders had any more understanding of cosmology than contemporary Greeks or Romans both of which had flat Earth models of the universe ..

But I will say that your misrepresentation has been entertaining if not original..

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #19 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:37am
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FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:35pm:
The big problem with atheists is that they don't want to know how to understand the Bible for what it's actually saying. They don't want to be bothered by the definition of a Hebrew word because they'd much rather come up with their own definition of Hebrew words which stray far from the intended meaning.



The big problem with those suffering from religious delusions is that they don't want to take the bible for what it actually says.  Instead they pervert the meaning by contorting themselves in all manner of pretzelish interpretations.. 

They take a book of prose and poetry and try to make it fit modern science..  It's simultaneously sad and hilarious..




  
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