Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment! Algorithm free!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth? (Read 4,168 times)
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 28,332
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #100 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 5:36pm
Print Post  
Limey. wrote on Aug 20th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
It’s not a matter of cordial disagreement over positions.


If you say salt is revolting, we can discuss personal taste, the way cultures and norms inform preferences, how taste buds work, it can be informative, useful and enjoyable.


If you say salt is produced by pixies who feed on the distilled essence of unicorn tears, I won’t feel a need for more than cursory politeness.



Here is the deal, personal insults are not going to be tolerated.  Discuss at your leisure but personal attacks are not allowed.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FEZZILLA
LNF Bunker
**
Offline


Posts: 492
Location: United States
Joined: Jun 5th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #101 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 12:43am
Print Post  
Contextual Application: chûwg, mᵉchûwgâh, têbêl, dûwr (also machabath & tachath)

Here is a lesson on how to read a lexicon. I am going to post five pics of word definitions using the Strong's number system. Now when you read these keep in mind they are defined by the same Hebrew scholar. But note that not every word is used to describe the shape of the earth.

Process of Elimination: Which words and verses do not fit the context of the earth and it's shape?

1. "The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house" ( H4230: מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh, Isaiah 44:13 -- KJV).

2. "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; Job 26:10 -- KJV).

3. "That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, Isaiah 40:22 -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

4. "Yea euen the Lorde of hoastes that with his power made the earth, with his wisdome prepared the round world, and with his discretion spread out the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl Jeremiah 51:15 -- 1568 Bishop's Bible).

"But as for our God he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discretion hath he spread out the heauens" (Strong's H8398:תֵּבֵל têbêl, Jeremiah 10:12 -- 1568 Bishop's Bible).

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl, Proverbs 8:31 -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

5. "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).
-----------------------------------------------
Summary:

1. Strong's H4230 mᵉchûwgâh is used only 1x and was not used to describe the shape of the earth or the earth at all.

2. Strong's H2328 chûwg is used 1x to describe the earth.

3. Strong's H2329 chûwg is used 3x but only 1x to describe the entire earth, with the other two verses used to describe the arch or vault (curvature) of the sky.

4. Strong's H8398 têbêl is used 36x and 10x to describe the fullness of the earth and its inhabitants. I only used 3 examples out of 10 here to keep it simple and easy.

5. Strong's H1754 dûwr (aka, dur) is used 3x and never to describe the earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:

Hebrew is the context driven language. Neither H4230 mᵉchûwgâh or H1754 dûwr are ever used once to describe the earth. Together they make up 4 verses in the entire Bible. If these words were supposed to be used to describe the earth then they would of been used at least 1x out of 4 to do so.
But you will noticed how H2328--H2329 chûwg and H8398 têbêl share the same contextual application with only minor differences in overall usage. But when applied to the earth they both describe an earth which is compassing, round, circular, full, abiding by the boundary of light and darkness as we would expect from a spherical earth. The Tyndale influenced Bibles translate têbêl as "round world" or "round compass" or "whole compass of the world." These renderings give meaning to H2328 and a compassing world at the boundary of light and darkness (a globe). But têbêl & chûwg also share similar context in verses like Isaiah 40:22, Jeremiah 10:12 and Jeremiah 51:14 as the following check list shows:

✅ "round world" (Jer.51:15) "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22) and "whole compass of the world (Jer.10:12).

✅ "spread out the heavens" (Isaiah 40:22; Jer.10:12, 51:15).

Isaiah 40:22 shares another characteristic with Proverbs 8:31,

✅ "circle of the earth" (Isa.40:22); "round compass of his world" -- in both cases the earth is the Lord's and attributed to His Dominion and Rule from creation.

✅ "inhabitants of the world" (Isa.40:22), "children of men" (Prov.8:31).

So the connection between the shape of the earth, the spreading out of the heavens, and the inhabitants therein (Ps.89:11), are clearly seen. TWOT even goes further to define têbêl,

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth."
And again it says: "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

So both têbêl and chûwg share common application.

So why not use H4230 mᵉchûwgâh or H1754 dûwr?
Well the answer is pretty obvious that they are not good word choices which explains why Isaiah used neither word in Isa.40:22.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon does not contradict meaning. H2328 does not mean 2D flat circle while H2329 means globe. That is not how these definitions were meant to be understood. They both teach a 3D circle that compasses around at the boundary of day and night.

2000 years of theology can't go wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------
APPENDIX: My Challenge To Flat Earthers

Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d”

TWOT 600b: “flat plate, pan, or griddle (e.g. Lev. 2:5; 6:14; Ezk 4:3)”.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=nasb&strongs=h4227

So why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8478

So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.

Conclusion. If Isaiah wanted to use dur (Strong's H1754) instead of chuwg he would have. When we go into the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon we may see the reason why Isaiah chose chuwg over dur.

Here is the Gesenius' definition of dur
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1754

Here is the Gesenius' definition of chuwg
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The word chuwg means circle, sphere which is a 3D circle. The word also means compass which is what a 3D circle does.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

The English word "compass" applied to the shape of the earth.

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Job 26:10, KVJ).

"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (Job 26:10, 1539 Great Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 uses the Hebrew word תֵּבֵל têbêl which is also used to describe the shape of the earth which, like חוּג chûwg, means the compassing fullness of the globe.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FEZZILLA
LNF Bunker
**
Offline


Posts: 492
Location: United States
Joined: Jun 5th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #102 - May 17th, 2019 at 7:38am
Print Post  
Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
So the ancient church KNEW Isaiah was talking about globes yet still translated the word as circles ..


🌎Isaiah 40:22 -- γῦρον (Gyron), Septuagint (LXX).

Some militant atheists have made themselves irrelevant over the years by entertaining bad arguments that come back to bite them in the ass. The Greek word Gyron used in Isaiah 40:22 is one of those words which militant atheists like Richard Carrier claim mean 2D flat earth. So here we will examine the Septuagint rendering of Isaiah 40:22.

📜Greek: Quote:
👉 "ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς, καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες, ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῖν."


✅Word: γῦρον (gyron)

Christos Terzis, a Greek scholar friend of mine from Greece, was able to break down the meaning of gyron. He said: Quote:
"Gyron, Gyros, Γύρος, means "round" not circle. And it can well mean the shape of a sphere, not necessarily a circle."


He went further on to say:

Quote:
"Concerning Gyros...it is actually the same word used to say "circumnavigate the earth". It can mean to go around in circles too. For instance, the Hebrews went GYRO of Jericho 7 times and then it fell.
Ιt's because words in Greek change according to the use they are in. For instance: O gyros Tou gyrou - of the gyros (possessive) Ton Gyron - third person O gyre - calling out to gyros like saying Hey Mark! Come over here. It's the same word. The verse says "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".
The first O in O gyros is O (omicron). The last one in O gyre is Ω omega. The last one shows exclamation. O! gyre!
Gyros is also (and this is useful for our purposes here) rotation. You can find this meaning on this page in Greek, in the first sentence.
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82_(%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF...
So when the earth rotates.....it is the same word in a noun γυρίζει/gyrizi
I think the guy on the page shot himself in the leg using gyros to make his case...
"


The guy he is referring to is Richard Carrier who shot himself in the leg for using gyros to mean flat earth.

He said gyron and gyros are the same word.

Here are more examples of what the word means and its variants.

γύρου (gyron)
https://www.wordsense.eu/%CE%B3%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%85/#Ancient_Greek

"1. Form of γύρος (genitive singular)"

γύρος (gyros)
https://www.wordsense.eu/%CE%B3%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82/

"γύρος (Greek)
Origin & history
From Ancient Greek γῦρος‎.

Noun
γύρος (γύροι) (masc.)
bout, round, perimeter, rim
brim (of a hat)
gyro, doner kebab
lap, round, tour (sport)
tour, turn (work)."

Interestingly the word gyro is applied in Proverbs 8:27 in the Latin Vulgate, while gyrum is applied to Isaiah 40:22. These two Latin words carry the same meaning as the Greek. Lets take a look.

Proverbs 8:27,

📖Latin Vulgate: Quote:
👉 "quando praeparabat caelos aderam quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos."


✅Word: gyro, from H2329 חוּג chûwg

Meaning
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

"gyro (Latin)
Origin & history
From gȳrus‎ ("circle"), from Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
Pronunciation
(Classical) IPA: /ˈɡʏː.roː/
Verb
1. I turn in a circle, wheel around, rotate.
2. I circle, revolve around."

More Latin Definitions
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-2832ea3f707b19f38694...

It means "round"

But other definitions are given

"go around verb
campso

circumvehor verb: travel, sail round, ride round, circumnavigate, describe.
circumvenio verb: circumvenid, surround, circumvent, come around, come round.
circumago verb: rotate, wrap, bring round, turn round, revolve.
curvo verb: curve, turn down, bend, crook, arch."

Gyre is also a variant of Latin gyrus and Greek gyros.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyre#English

Another site for gyre
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gyre

More information on gyre
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gyre?fbclid=IwAR2FEdYcJ5STtNAAxTPssJP-pARz9GU2...

"noun
1. a ring or circle.
2. a circular course or motion.
3. Oceanography . a ringlike system of ocean currents rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere."

There are plenty of posts on this page that cover Isaiah 40:22 and the Latin word gyrum (aka, gyrus) used. It verse says "the globe of the earth" in English.

But going back to the Septuagint's Isaiah 40:22. It is best rendered in English as:

Quote:
👉 "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".


  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FEZZILLA
LNF Bunker
**
Offline


Posts: 492
Location: United States
Joined: Jun 5th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #103 - May 17th, 2019 at 7:46am
Print Post  
🌎Now lets compare the Hebrew chuwg

Now keep in mind that none of the Greek and Latin words discussed here change in meaning. Only in application do they differ, as in the difference between the word "move" and "moves." They both mean move. So in this section we will see how well the Greek and Latin harmonize using English words.

Hebrew Lexicons for H2329 חוּג Chuwg,

✅The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

Quote:
H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".


✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: Quote:
"חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."


Now remember that the word used in Hebrew is chuwg and the English words are there to help us understand what a chuwg is.

🌎Chuwg =  gyron

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyron = round, gyro,

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyron = circumnavigate, circumference

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyron = lap,  turn, movement on a circle
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Greek

The earth is round with a 24,901 circumference which people have sailed around (or circumnavigated). The earth turns while it makes its lap around the sun.

Lets look at Proverbs 8:27 this time.

🌎Chuwg = gyro

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyro = round, circle

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyro = sail round, surround, circumnavigate, come around, curve, bend, arch

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyro = rotate, revolve around, turn in a circle, travel, ride round, bring round, turn round.

🌎Chuwg = gyre

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyre = circle, round, ring

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyre = rounded, Oceanography . a ringlike system of ocean currents rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyre = a circular course or motion, go in a circle, turn round.

🌎Chuwg = Sphere
🌎Gyron/Gyros = Sphere
🌎Gyro = Sphere
🌎Gyre = Sphere
✅Gesenius' Lexicon: Circle = Sphere!

Ironically from the Greek words Gyron/Gyros, Gyro and Gyre, we get the word gyroscope which is used for proving the earth is round...spherical. Using Gyros to prove a case for a flat earth Bible is probably not the best argument to make. What makes this an even harder challenge for atheists is that the Septuagint reflects the Paleo-Hebrew meanings even better than the Masoretic texts (no ill intended towards the Masoretic texts). The Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish scholars and while its not in Hebrew, it reads closer to what the original Hebrew intended. And again, Latin variants don't change Greek meanings. So all the oldest and most reliable manuscripts all say the earth is a moving sphere! I fail to see anything rational coming from atheists.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
A1 News Page
David Limbaugh
Political Frog
Conservatives Directory
President Trump Approval Poll
Presidential Party Election Poll
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules