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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth? (Read 3,734 times)
FEZZILLA
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #20 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:03pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:44am:
The word chuwg is used 6 times in the bible.  Each to describe a flat geometrical shape such as a coin ..

He has inscribed a circle (chug) on the face of the waters
at the boundary between light and darkness.

-Job 26:10

When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle (chug) on the face of the deep,

when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,

-Prov. 8:27-28

It is he who sits above the circle (chug) of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;

who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

-Isa. 40:22


It might be interesting to mention at this point that curtains are of course flat also.. Makes sense in that the 'curtain' is said to be spread over a flat Earth.


It's simple ridiculous to assume that bronze age goat herders had any more understanding of cosmology than contemporary Greeks or Romans both of which had flat Earth models of the universe ..

But I will say that your misrepresentation has been entertaining if not original..



I already proved this wrong. What authority can you cite that will support how you are interpreting this? I have already supplied the best authorities of the last 2000 years. You have an opinion but your opinion is refuted by higher authority. There is no flat earth tradition and I have already proven the Bible teaches globe earth, exclusively.

This is also a prime example of how atheists claim modern science was an atheist endeavor. When you say we Christians try to make science fit the Bible you are saying it was atheists who established modern science. That is not historical. It was Christians who established modern science from their knowledge of the Bible and that is history fact.
Atheists are also not priests and do not know the Bible or the ancient languages it was written in. Atheists are full of assumptions and none of them are true. The Bible was the first ancient document that taught us about the globular shape of the earth and how it rotates and suspended over nothing in space.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #21 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:17pm
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Did The Greeks Influence The Christians?

Atheists make the claim that the Christians knew the earth was round only because the Greeks told them. This lie is well refuted by the Old Testament which the early Christians read and knew very well.

There are several verses in the Bible dating as far back as 2000 B.C., 1000 B.C., 900., B.C. and 700 B.C. which state the earth is round. All these round earth verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought in 500 B.C.

Here is a general overlay of round earth verses in the Bible. This does not cover all round earth verses but the dates in history in which these verses were written from.

Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.),

Quote:
"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (2000 B.C.)


Quote:
"He has circled the waters with boundaries, until the day and night come to an end" (MEV).

Quote:
“But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (St.Augustine, "The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1." Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41, p.33).

Quote:
“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” ( Jewish Historian Josephus, Antiquity 1:30).

https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Psalm 89:11 (1000 B.C.),

Quote:
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Matthew's Bible).


Proverbs 8:31 (900 B.C.),

Quote:
"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).


Quote:
"It moves to the south,
and then moves around to the north;
the wind continually travels around,
and it keeps turning on its circuit" (MEV).


Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
1) places round about, circuit, round about (substantive)
2) in a circuit, a circuit, round about (adverb)
3) in the circuit, from every side (preposition)
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons...

Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote:
“1:6 whirleth about continually. This is a remarkable anticipation of the modern discovery of the world’s wind circuits in the global circulation of the atmosphere.”


Isaiah 40:22 (700 B.C.),

Quote:
" It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).


Oldest reading of this verse I found comes from 4th century St.Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

Quote:
"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).


Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon (coded with the Strong's number system),

Quote:
H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."


« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:23pm by FEZZILLA »  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #22 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:00pm
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The Chuwg/Dur Isaiah 40:22 Super Challenge!

So many flat earthers try to be the mind of Isaiah and say if Isaiah meant spinning ball then he would have used the Hebrew word dur which flat earthers claim mean ball. Then they go on to say that the earth is flat like a plate in the Bible and Isaiah's use of the Hebrew word chuwg means a flat plate. So lets look into this claim and see if what flat earthers say is true.

A Challenge to Isaiah 40:22

There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn’t use the Hebrew word “dur” which carries the meaning of “ball.” This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, we can, Strong’s H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn’t use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT’s explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean “to heap up” or “to pile something.” It can be used to mean “go in a circle.” But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean “lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime.” Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. I wanted to type the lexicons in but those very long explanations for the word dur. So anyone who can get their hands on the Strong's or TWOT are free to see how there is nothing in the explanation given that would lead us to believe Isaiah would use the word dur over chuwg.

My Challenge To Flat Earthers

But I have a question for flat earther: Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

Quote:
"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d”


TWOT 600b: Quote:
“flat plate, pan, or griddle (e.g. Lev. 2:5; 6:14; Ezk 4:3)”.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=nasb&strongs=h4227


Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8478

So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.

Conclusion. If Isaiah wanted to use dur (Strong's H1754) instead of chuwg he would have. When we go into the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon we may see the reason why Isaiah chose chuwg over dur.

Here is the Gesenius' definition of dur
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1754

Here is the Gesenius' definition of chuwg
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The word chuwg means circle, sphere, which is a 3D circle. The word also means compass which is what a 3D  circle does.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

The English word "compass" applied to the shape of the earth.

Proverbs 8:31,

Quote:
"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

Quote:
"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Job 26:10, KVJ).


Quote:
"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (Job 26:10, 1539 Great Bible).


Proverbs 8:31 uses the Hebrew word תֵּבֵל têbêl which is also used to describe the shape of the earth which, like חוּג chûwg, means a compassing fullness of the globe. 
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:09pm by FEZZILLA »  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #23 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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The Biblical Flat Earth: The Teaching From Scripture


As a Christian, the flat earth begins and ends with Scripture. While the evidence continues to mount, and has, for the flat earth, I must begin by saying, "the Scriptures told you so."

Just like so many people have been deceived regarding evolution, the big bang, and heliocentrism, so to have many been duped into believing that we are on a spinning ball. The ramifications of these lies have wide sweeping effects upon every sphere of life and society. I would like to begin with the most controversial verse in Isaiah.

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" Is. 40:22

I recall in my apologetic days, that when atheists would make fun of the Bible, they would constantly bring up this verse. The typical Christian response was to point out that the word circle here is, in fact, proving that the earth was a ball. I remembered even then thinking that didn't seem right to me. We all know what a circle is and it is not a ball. In fact, the Hebrew word used in this verse is "khoog" (pronounced chug). The word literally means, circle, circuit, and compass. In all of these words, none of them conjure up a picture of a ball. Furthermore if the earth were a ball, and God wished to communicate that here, then it would have required using the Hebrew word "dure" (pronounced dur). The Hebrew definition for dure is, a circle, pile, or ball. Isn't that interesting? If the shape of the earth was intended to be conveyed as a "ball" then the Hebrew word "dure" would have been the word used as found in Isaiah 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." It wasn't used there. What we were given instead was the Hebrew word "khoog."

As you can see above, the flat earth depictions are exactly that, a circle. Furthermore, notice that in the verse that man is dwelling in the earth. The Hebrew word here is "yashab" and literally means to "sit down," and by implication means to dwell, to remain, and to settle. It would be quite difficult to sit down, remain, and settle upon a spinning ball, wouldn't it?

Another interesting verse for me is when Jesus is taken up to a high mountain by Satan and shown the kingdoms of the world.

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. - Matthew 4:8

Notice that this mountain was "very high." In the Greek here, the word for high is "hupselos" and means literally high or lofty. Add to that the Greek word "very" which is "lian" and we now have a very intentional description of this.

If the world is a ball, the higher one goes the less one would be seeing of the earth because the curvature would constantly be falling and you would have to look further and further down, however. If the earth were flat, then the higher you go, the more you see while the horizon stays at eye level. The horizon rises to the eye. It seems to me that Jesus was taken to very high mountain and could literally see all of the kingdoms of the world.

Some may respond with objections to this interpretation suggesting that this particular event is merely speaking symbolically. To that I would ask, what were the kingdoms a symbol of if not of real literal kingdoms? Was Satan a symbol as well? What about Jesus? Was He a symbol too? Obviously that sort of interpretation for this particular verse does not work at all.

Another interesting example from Scripture is found in Joshua 10 where God caused the "sun to stand still."

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day." - Joshua 10:13

If the sun is the center of the universe and the earth is orbiting around it, then for this event to occur, it would have to have been the earth standing still, not the sun, however. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon rotate above us, it would make perfect sense for the sun to stand still in order to prolong the day here.



  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #24 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Firmament:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. - Genesis 1:14

Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. - Job 9:8

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? - Job 37:18

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalms 19:1

Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. - Psalms 102:25

Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain. - Psalms 104:2   

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. - Isaiah 44:24

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. - Isaiah 45:12

Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. - Isaiah 48:13

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. - Jeremiah 10:12

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. - Zechariah 12:1

The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Waters And The Heaven of Heavens Above:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. - Deuteronomy 10:14

Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Psalms 148:4

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. - 2 Peter 3:5

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.



Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Earth Being Immovable:

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. - Joshua 10:13

Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. - 1 Chronicles 16:30

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. - Psalms 93:1

Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously. - Psalms 96:10
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. - Psalms 104:5

Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. - Isaiah 38:8

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. - Isaiah 45:18

The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Flat Earth:

And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. - Jeremiah 49:36

Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. - Ezekiel 7:2

The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth. - Daniel 4:11

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. - Isaiah 40:22

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. - Matthew 4:8

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth. - Acts 10:11

I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me. - Acts 11:5

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #25 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. - Revelation 7:1

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. - Revelation 20:8

The number of verses that teach the earth is a round spinning ball orbiting the sun? 0

Some would argue that these verses were meant to convey the sun from our perspective. I would have to ask: why would the standard of truth and the Sovereign God wish to communicate the truth of the earth He created from OUR perspective? This sort of reasoning is what led to many false teaching regarding the creation account. For them, they start with the presupposition that evolution is true, and then reason that God only communicated the creation account through poetic symbolism and yet the same ones would use the "circle" reference as anything but a symbol.

The Scriptures are the source and standard of truth and would not be if the information that is being communicated is based merely upon man and his "perspective."

Also, the verses which speak about the "four corners" of the earth only makes sense in respect to the flat earth. If the earth were a ball there wouldn't be one corner, let alone four. Yes, I recognize that the "four corners" could be merely an "all encompassing" reference, however. It still stands as a mental thorn in the minds of those that wish to believe we are on a spinning ball.


  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #26 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:20pm
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #27 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:21pm
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #28 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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    1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

    Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

    Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

    Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

    Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”



    Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”

    Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”

    Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”

    Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”

    Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”



I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates of heaven were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven come out...(1 Enoch 33:1-2).

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #29 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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Job 37:18 "Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as
           a molten looking glass ?"


Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
          and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world,
          and the glory of them;"

  
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