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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth? (Read 5,457 times)
Fiddleɾ
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #30 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:40pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
I already proved this wrong.


No you didn't. 


FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:03pm:
What authority can you cite that will support how you are interpreting this?


Hebrew Dictionary ..
  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #31 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 4:24pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
The Biblical Flat Earth: The Teaching From Scripture


As a Christian, the flat earth begins and ends with Scripture. While the evidence continues to mount, and has, for the flat earth, I must begin by saying, "the Scriptures told you so."


This is not about what Scripture says but how its properly interpreted. You have no authoritative sources and I've supplied 2000+ years of highly authoritative sources, from the 1st century A.D. on up to the most reputable modern scholars. You have supplied no reputable sources of any kind and are stuck in an uneducated opinion which is typical of atheism.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Just like so many people have been deceived regarding evolution, the big bang, and heliocentrism, so to have many been duped into believing that we are on a spinning ball. The ramifications of these lies have wide sweeping effects upon every sphere of life and society. I would like to begin with the most controversial verse in Isaiah.

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" Is. 40:22

I recall in my apologetic days, that when atheists would make fun of the Bible, they would constantly bring up this verse. The typical Christian response was to point out that the word circle here is, in fact, proving that the earth was a ball. I remembered even then thinking that didn't seem right to me. We all know what a circle is and it is not a ball. In fact, the Hebrew word used in this verse is "khoog" (pronounced chug). The word literally means, circle, circuit, and compass. In all of these words, none of them conjure up a picture of a ball. Furthermore if the earth were a ball, and God wished to communicate that here, then it would have required using the Hebrew word "dure" (pronounced dur). The Hebrew definition for dure is, a circle, pile, or ball. Isn't that interesting? If the shape of the earth was intended to be conveyed as a "ball" then the Hebrew word "dure" would have been the word used as found in Isaiah 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." It wasn't used there. What we were given instead was the Hebrew word "khoog."

As you can see above, the flat earth depictions are exactly that, a circle. Furthermore, notice that in the verse that man is dwelling in the earth. The Hebrew word here is "yashab" and literally means to "sit down," and by implication means to dwell, to remain, and to settle. It would be quite difficult to sit down, remain, and settle upon a spinning ball, wouldn't it?


This is all already very, extremely, well refuted! I did not see you source any authority behind these words. You should know that without authority backing up your interpretation it means nothing. Its already refuted in my other post -- and very well refuted at that! But I'm gonna go through the stuff here I didn't cover well and refute it all of it.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Another interesting verse for me is when Jesus is taken up to a high mountain by Satan and shown the kingdoms of the world.

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. - Matthew 4:8

Notice that this mountain was "very high." In the Greek here, the word for high is "hupselos" and means literally high or lofty. Add to that the Greek word "very" which is "lian" and we now have a very intentional description of this.

If the world is a ball, the higher one goes the less one would be seeing of the earth because the curvature would constantly be falling and you would have to look further and further down, however. If the earth were flat, then the higher you go, the more you see while the horizon stays at eye level. The horizon rises to the eye. It seems to me that Jesus was taken to very high mountain and could literally see all of the kingdoms of the world.

Some may respond with objections to this interpretation suggesting that this particular event is merely speaking symbolically. To that I would ask, what were the kingdoms a symbol of if not of real literal kingdoms? Was Satan a symbol as well? What about Jesus? Was He a symbol too? Obviously that sort of interpretation for this particular verse does not work at all.


This is too stupid to answer. I don't know of one Christian who reads the passage like this. This is atheist reasoning which is refuted by the Christian priesthood. When debating this issue and you want to win the debate, you are stuck using Christian sources and to try to use those sources against us. It don't work.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #32 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 4:28pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Another interesting example from Scripture is found in Joshua 10 where God caused the "sun to stand still."

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day." - Joshua 10:13

If the sun is the center of the universe and the earth is orbiting around it, then for this event to occur, it would have to have been the earth standing still, not the sun, however. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon rotate above us, it would make perfect sense for the sun to stand still in order to prolong the day here.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iTqTrRFUEqk/V09IpQbXdyI/AAAAAAAABJQ/f_EfuNKEyWo_BbY7Y...



This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth and already answered here.
http://www.libertynewsforum.com/cgi-bin/politics/YaBB.pl?num=1531552247

So that link covers all moving/circling sun verses in the Bible. The verse in Joshua has no impact on the Biblical infallibility.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #33 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 4:42pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Firmament:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. - Genesis 1:14


Firmament/expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

Quote:
"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.

(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautiful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."


As you can plainly read the word "raqiya" does not mean solid dome.
Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

Quote:
"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."


Genesis one translated properly into modern English
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=MEV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NKJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=RSV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NASB

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=ESV

Different translations, different disciplines, and yet they properly translate Genesis 1 using correct modern grammar. The KJV means the same thing but grammatical rules back then differ from what they do today.

So this issue of the firmament is well settled.

  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #34 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 5:01pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? - Job 37:18


Job 37:18, Solid Sky.

This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,

Quote:
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

Other Translations:

Quote:
"Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass" (Douay-Rheims Bible).


Quote:
"Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?" (ESV).

Quote:
"Hast thou stretched out the heavens, which are strong, and as a molten glass?" (1599 Geneva Bible).


Quote:
"Have you, with Him, spread out the sky,
which is strong and is like a molded mirror?" (MEV).


Quote:
"With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV).


Quote:
"can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?" (HCSB).

Quote:
"can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?" (NIV).



Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven!  Roll Eyes

There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.

The answer: The narrator is Elihu.

What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.

Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.

The narrator is irrelevant.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. - Psalms 102:25


Yes, God laid the foundation of the earth.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Psalms 148:4


This verse absolutely and utterly destroys flat earth nonsense! The heaves of heavens is beyond the sky of the earth (the singular heaven, that is)
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #35 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:12pm
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I have destroyed all your arguments using Bible references.  You have no where to go except admit that bronze age goat herders believed the world to be flat..  It's simply in the texts for all to read.  You've failed again.

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #36 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:44pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Earth Being Immovable:

Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. - 1 Chronicles 16:30

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. - Psalms 93:1


4th century Bishop  Ambrose defines what the immovable earth means.

Quote:
“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall,because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).


Ambrose is the Bishop of Milan and had been a Christian his whole life. His understanding of Scripture was greater than that of Augustine (as Augustine was more of a Philosopher than Ambrose was). Ambrose here is quoting and harmonizing Scriptures which teach us what the doctrine of immovable earth mean. It means that the earth is fixed in its position in the solar system and will not float away or fall. Job 26:7 may of had some believers worried about the earth falling and Ambrose points out that the earth is immovable which means steadfast and fixed in position by the laws ordained for it by God Who created the earth. This answers all immovable earth verses in the Bible.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. - Psalms 104:5


Yes, the earth will not fall from its ordained position in the solar system just as Ambrose explained.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Flat Earth:

And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. - Jeremiah 49:36

Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. - Ezekiel 7:2


Four cardinal directions of the far reaches of the earth. Its an expression and it was never used to describe the shape of the earth. There is no flat earth tradition in Christianity and if the Bible taught flat earth there would most definitely be a tradition proving it. But there isn't.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. - Psalms 93:1 


Here again as Ambrose said the earth will not fall. But the KJV also mistranslates this verse. The Hebrew word tebel is used here which better renders as:

Quote:
"The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (Psalm 93:1, 1537 Matthew's Bible). 


The Hebrew word tebel, as I have proven here already, means the inhabitable globe.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #37 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:50pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
I have destroyed all your arguments using Bible references.  You have no where to go except admit that bronze age goat herders believed the world to be flat..  It's simply in the texts for all to read.  You've failed again.


Theology and exegesis is a very authoritative study where opinions don't matter. You have not referenced one authority from ancient or modern times. You posted your opinion was has no weight on the matter. I, on the other hand, have used the most authoritative sources from both ancient and modern times. Christianity is not subjective to the opinions of 21st century atheists. We Christians have been around for 2000 years and have traditions tracing back to Christ and His Apostles. This is called the Apostolic Succession and there are no gaps in the ecclesiastical lineage.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #38 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 7:06pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:20pm:




And how is youtube authoritative? A Pastor in today's world does not quality as a creationist or a theologian. But 4th century Bishop Ambrose was very highly qualified and reliable to explain simple passages which is what we have been dealing with.

No 20th or 21st century person anywhere on earth has been given the ecclesiastical authority to change or re-interpret the clear passages of the Bible. We are not talking about future prophecy here or other tougher passages which would have stumped the early church fathers. We are talking about simple readings which have been understood for 2000 years.

Some flat earthers make the claim that St.Jerome believed the earth was flat. They make this claim based on his analysis on the verse in his commentary on Isaiah. I have that commentary and have read it for myself. Now to be honest, its unsure what he is saying there. Is he agreeing with flat earth or globe earth? He really doesn't make himself clear on the issue. But he did translate the verse from Hebrew to Latin and was considered a very careful scholar which is why he was trusted with the new Latin translation. But whether or not he was a flat earther was not made clear in his commentary on the verse.

But this is how St.Jerome translated Isaiah 40:22

Quote:
It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.


I quoted from the Douay-Rheims Bible which is an English translation of Jerome's Vulgate.

The Hebrew word chuwg translates into the Latin globus which means that regardless of what Jerome believed, he translated to the word to mean globe.

And still, in other languages, the same word translates to sphere and/or orb. The circle of Isaiah 40:22 is meant to be understood as a 3D circle -- a globe.

German lexicon translates it to sphere:

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon,

Quote:
H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #39 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 7:20pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
I have destroyed all your arguments using Bible references.  You have no where to go except admit that bronze age goat herders believed the world to be flat..  It's simply in the texts for all to read.  You've failed again.


All you did was list verses you had no idea what they meant. You did not interpret the verses and just assumed they meant what you wanted them to mean. But all reputable sources confirm what each and every verse means.

You don't win debates with assumptions. You have to prove the meaning of the verses using reputable sources. You did not do that so you lose this debate.

You don't even know how to interpret these verses on your own. The Bible doesn't read like a science textbook. Its a deeply spiritual Book which uses figurative speech when capturing things of a deeper spiritual meaning. This is why there are poetic parts in the Bible. Poetry as a rule captures deeper meaning that the general use of words and expressions do not.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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