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Seawolf
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #70 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 8:45am
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 8:28am:
COUNTER POINTS TO WHAT????

All you've done is to offer imaginative interpretations to what otherwise are straightforward biblical viewpoints ..   


He has spent pages laying it out with sources, if you have to ask that question then it is obvious you did not read his posts, which you do often
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #71 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 8:45am:
He has spent pages laying it out with sources, if you have to ask that question then it is obvious you did not read his posts, which you do often


FIZZLE has been consistent in misrepresenting word meanings.. nothing more ..

Do you believe the Earth sits on pillars?.. The bible says it does..

Do you believe that the Earth does not rotate or revolve around the Sun?  The bible says it doesn't ..

Do you believe the Earth has ends.?.  The bible says it does..

Do you believe that globes have corners?  .  The bible says they do ..



Sure.. you buy every word of his distortion but then you've willfully abandoned reason.. a prerequisite for believing the inerrancy of bronze age goat herder cosmology .. 

 
  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #72 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:58am
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
FIZZLE has been consistent in misrepresenting word meanings.. nothing more ..

Do you believe the Earth sits on pillars?.. The bible says it does..

Do you believe that the Earth does not rotate or revolve around the Sun?  The bible says it doesn't ..

Do you believe the Earth has ends.?.  The bible says it does..

Do you believe that globes have corners?  .  The bible says they do ..



Sure.. you buy every word of his distortion but then you've willfully abandoned reason.. a prerequisite for believing the inerrancy of bronze age goat herder cosmology .. 

 

You and I, as well as Fez have shown you, given you our sources and yet you refuse them all to push your agenda.  You asked me all these questions which I answered and you refuse to acknowledge.  So tell me why I should go down this road again when we already know what you are going to do.  There is no sincerity from you.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #73 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
FIZZLE has been consistent in misrepresenting word meanings.. nothing more ..


Nope. I have not given you anything. I provided meanings that have been defined for 2000 years, long before Darwin and atheist movement took root and started war with Christianity. You want to define meanings that the ancients do not recognize. I am sticking to the ancient meanings which you have no possible way of refuting since your claim would state that the ancients believed what you claim they believed. Yet, when we see what they say about these matters you try and blame me for making up meanings when you know those meanings were defined a long time before you and I were born.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
Do you believe the Earth sits on pillars?.. The bible says it does..


You don't read anything I have posted. Job 26:7 has been used since ancient times to teach what holds up the earth which is nothing. I have covered that very well here but you failed to read. Nowhere in the Bible does it say actual pillars hold up the earth. Lets examine one of the more quoted verses.

Job 26:11,

Quote:
“The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof”


This verse and others like it are often manipulated by atheists to mean that the earth is held up by visible pillars. But this interpretation is not correct and for several reasons. The literal interpretation would be how the mountains go up as high as the heavens. But nowhere does it say these mountains are holding up the earth. Job 26:7 is a verse that literally describes the earth being held up by nothing at all.

Ancient Christian Commentary, Vol.VI, Job
Quote:
“THE MEANING OF PILLARS AND SEA. PHILIP THE PRIEST: “The pillars of heaven tremble and are frightened at his nod.” We interpret the word pillars as the stability that is permanent only in the nature of angels, because they are not only constantly persisting in holiness but also splendid in the glory of eternal blessedness. Indeed about the future immobility of humanity, the Son of God said, “Those who prove victorious I will make into pillars in the sanctuary of my God.” But the church, which is the congregation of all saints, is said to be the pillar and foundation of truth thanks to its eternal stability in the Lord.”


The word pillars carries a very broad meaning in the Bible and is an interchangeable word which goes alongside foundation/foundations. Atheists have been desperate to make this word meaning that something like how the mountains are holding up the earth or the sky. But this is not the case in any verse the words pillars or foundations occurs. Lets see if there is a clear case for the much more figurative meaning in the Bible.

1 Tim.3:15: Quote:
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”


Gal.2:9: Quote:
“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”


This verse means that James, Cephas (aka., Peter) and John were pillars of the Christian movement, which also means they seemed to Paul like leaders of authoritative strength. And indeed they were. Also notice how Paul’s fellowship was accepted by these three pillars of the church. Peter was called the Rock by Jesus but he didn’t literally mean Peter was an actual rock. Jesus knew Peter was a man and not a literal rock. Simply stated, the usage of the word pillars in the Bible never carries a meaning connected to an earth being held up by physical objects (Job 26:7).

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
Do you believe that the Earth does not rotate or revolve around the Sun?  The bible says it doesn't ..

I answer that one here.
http://www.libertynewsforum.com/cgi-bin/politics/YaBB.pl?num=1531552247

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
Do you believe the Earth has ends.?.  The bible says it does..

I've listed well over a dozen globe earth verses from the Bible in which I have supplied plenty of proof supporting the globe earth interpretation. Being that there is no flat earth interpretation, you are clearly misreading those verses. The ends of the earth mean the far reaches of the earth from all cardinal directions of the globe. Since the ancients were informed by God that we live on a globe, they did not believe in a flat earth like your evolutionary ancestors did.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:11am:
Do you believe that globes have corners?  .  The bible says they do ..


There is no flat earth tradition and there would be if the Bible taught flat earth. With well over a dozen globe earth verses there is no excuse for atheists to act this dumb.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #74 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:47pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
your claim would state that the ancients believed what you claim they believed.


I believe that they believed what they said they believed.. That the Earth is unmoving, it sits on pillars and has corners that you can see from high mountains..

You have done nothing to change those passages .. 


FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
Nowhere in the Bible does it say actual pillars hold up the earth. Lets examine one of the more quoted verses.


It doesn't say that they were virtual pillars either .. .

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.,
-1 Samuel 2:8

FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
But nowhere does it say these mountains are holding up the earth.


Right.. It says that the world was placed on pillars ..


FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
I've listed well over a dozen globe earth verses from the Bible in which I have supplied plenty of proof supporting the globe earth interpretation.


You tried to ..   There are no "globe" Earth verses .. They chose the word "world" .. not "globe"  ..

FEZZILLA wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
There is no flat earth tradition and there would be if the Bible taught flat earth.


There was until science replaced bible mythology .. 

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #75 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 7:32pm
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He's answered your questions, you just want him to chase his tail.  I think you are a waste of our time.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #76 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:02pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
I believe that they believed what they said they believed.. That the Earth is unmoving, it sits on pillars and has corners that you can see from high mountains..

You have done nothing to change those passages .. 


Sure I did. I quoted from ancient priests interpreting those passages. You didn't read them obviously; either that or you do not have enough sense to understand the weight of evidence. In simple verses like these the ancient evidence has more weight then the assumptions make in modern times about what the ancients belief. And as the ancients to not believe what you claim they believed, your assumption about what they believed and how they read and understood the Scriptures is proven false.


Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
It doesn't say that they were virtual pillars either .. .

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.,
-1 Samuel 2:8


Right.. It says that the world was placed on pillars ..


If you actually see the usage of all the verses that deal with pillars and then study the meaning of the word as understood in ancient times, as with the materials I supplied here that you deliberately ignored, you would realize that the word is used to describe multiple things such a leaders and angels.

1 Samuel 2:8,

Quote:
"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).


The pillars of the earth in this verse represent God's leaders of Israel which will bring about justice in Israel and eventually the Messiah on earth which will save many souls. So the fate of the earth is held up by those God has chosen to do His work on earth.

This is a tebel verse:

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

So since the lexicons agree more with Tyndale over all other translators, this verse is actually a globe earth verse. So now you are left with the argument that perhaps the Hebrew writers believed as the Greeks did which was how Atlas held up the sphere.

The best rendering of Job 26:7 comes from a not so good translation which is the NAB. However, as I have studied this verse in Hebrew very well, the perfect rendition from Hebrew to modern English gives the NAB a point in fine translating in this one given verse (the rest of that translation is muck).

Quote:
Job 26:7 נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃


Quote:
"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all."


Even much better translations miss "at all" in this verse which the Hebrew demands. But even when we look at other translations they all say the same thing. This verse is speaking about how there is no physical object holding up the earth. This verse has been mentioned by ancient priests who very clearly knew what the verse was saying.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
You tried to ..   There are no "globe" Earth verses .. They chose the word "world" .. not "globe"  ..


Sure there are and I already posted them here. Here is a list of clear globe earth verse which speak of the whole world as a globe and not just the curvature of the sky.

Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.)
1 Samuel 2:8 (1064 B.C).
Psalm 18:15 (1000 B.C).
Psalm 24:1
Psalm 89:11
Psalm 93:1
Psalm 96:10
Proverbs 8:31 (950 B.C.)
Isaiah 34:1 (700 B.C.)
Isaiah 40:22
Jeremiah 10:12 (600 B.C.)
Jeremiah 51:15
Luke 17:30-34 (A.D. 32).

13 verses teach globe earth and 12 of them are dated before 500 B.C. which is when the first Greek thought about the spherical earth is recorded in Greek history.

Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
There was until science replaced bible mythology .. 


Here you go again trying to claim modern science was an atheist endeavor when there were no atheists responsible for the establishment of modern science. Modern science was a Christian endeavor and they all read and believed the Bible as God's word. So science has not replaced the Bible. Atheists just like to make claims that aren't true.
« Last Edit: Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:13am by FEZZILLA »  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #77 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:13am
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tebel and chuwg

Lets consider the similarities between how Isaiah and Jeremiah describe the shape of the earth.

Isaiah 40:22, KJV

Quote:
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


Isaiah 40:22, 1568 Bishop's Bible

Quote:
It is he that sitteth vpon the circle of the world, whose inhabiters are in comparison of him but as grashoppers: he spreadeth out the heauens as a couering, he stretcheth them out as a tent to dwell in


Jeremiah 51:15, 1568 Bishop's Bible

Quote:
"Yea euen the Lorde of hoastes that with his power made the earth, with his wisdome prepared the round world, and with his discretion spread out the heauens."


See the similarities in how tebel and chuwg are both applied to the physical description of the world? While chuwg is only used for globe, tebel means the entire inhabitable earth. They are both used to describe the earth as being a globe.

Lets see another comparison where tebel and chuwg are used to describe the very same thing.

Job 26:10, KJV

Quote:
He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.


From Bishop's Bible,

Quote:
He hath compassed the waters with certayne boundes, vntill the day and night come to an ende


Jeremiah 10:12,

Quote:
But as for our God he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discretion hath he spread out the heauens"


Hebrew word defintions

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: Quote:
H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

tebel: the inhabitable globe

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

Quote:
"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT Quote:
835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).


In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: "the inhabitable globe"
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398

« Last Edit: Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:21am by FEZZILLA »  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #78 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:10am
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So FIZZLE.. When are you going to release your translation of the bible? . . Do you have a name for it picked out yet?

  
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Re: Does the Holy Bible Teach Flat or Globe Earth?
Reply #79 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Fiddleɾ wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:10am:
So FIZZLE.. When are you going to release your translation of the bible? . . Do you have a name for it picked out yet?


He has laid a very thorough case.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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