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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Will NASA Find Life On Mars? (Read 4,008 times)
FEZZILLA
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #30 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:14pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 12:58pm:
Drunken Muslims are not the ones who'll likely blow themselves up in the middle of a crow and I like them for that, hypocritical or not. I like the "faithful" that realize that life is too short to waste it on senseless self-deprivation.


A drunken muslim is hypocritical since alcohol is supposed to be banned in Islam. A muslim may drink camel urine or blood, but they are not allowed to touch the wine (or other alcohol products).

Killing kafirs is part of Islamic practice and any muslim who has not killed a kafir or thought of killing a kafir is considered a hypocrite in Islam.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Freon_Bale
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #31 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:24pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
That's kinda funny you claim that religious leaders hijacked science when modern science was actually a Christian endeavor as history proves, and Christians established science. There were no atheists involved in the founding and establishing of modern science. God's creation of the world was well established in science before science was hijacked by the sensational rhetoric of evolutionists which changed science into mere fantasy as the idea of terraforming mars is nothing but pure fantasy with no science behind the thought.


You are incorrect, sir. Even at the most basic level of science learning, understanding the contributions of our religious heritage are required and give us pride. Mendel, the father of modern genetics, was a monk. Any biologist would be able to tell you that, as well as other historical, and often religious, contributors of where science is today.

Yet as these pioneers of science learned more and more, Copernicus being a notable example, they could not help but realize that G-d's contributions to the world are easily explained as being natural. But what did his own religion do to Copernicus on hearing his blasphemy (that we are NOT the center of the universe, or do you still subscribe to this notion?). They ostracized him. Sounds like just what I said, religious leaders abusing science for their own ends, and in opposition of the science itself.

Religion's persecution of science has an ugly, and long, history. And all it did, as you are doing today, is delay the general populous understanding that religion is not the appropriate place to be looking for answers regarding the physical universe.

I am not only completely convinced of evolution, I am thrilled by it. Because it is a natural process, and not a divine one, we will (and can) manipulate it. This will lead to less disease, greater lifespans, and a fundamental change to our species that we direct. This is massively exciting.

If we are made in G-d's image, then should we not aspire to G-d's abilities?
  
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Limey.
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #32 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 4:58pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
That's kinda funny you claim that religious leaders hijacked science when modern science was actually a Christian endeavor as history proves, and Christians established science. There were no atheists involved in the founding and establishing of modern science. God's creation of the world was well established in science before science was hijacked by the sensational rhetoric of evolutionists which changed science into mere fantasy as the idea of terraforming mars is nothing but pure fantasy with no science behind the thought.



You just don’t understand the language you use.
  

I have a new t shirt.
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Running Deer
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #33 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:23pm
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A couple of weeks ago, I was talking to a casual acquaintance who's a medical doctor.  His post-nominal said "DO" instead of "MD".  He's a surgeon, so he's not running some sort of quackery or scam.  I asked him what it means, and said "doctor of osteopathy".  I know that "osteopathy" would mean something like "bone disease", and asked him to clarify.  He told me a fascinating story.

It seems obvious to us now, but just 200 years ago no one knew what caused infectious diseases like smallpox, measles, and the flu.  In the flowering of science in the 19th century, dozens of theories were offered.  Some thought that small particles of disease would somehow enter the body and attack it, which were called germs.  (Essentially, the seeds of disease.)  Others thought that fluids or elements were misaligned, or their flow was blocked.

One group proposed that disease was caused by misaligned bones.  The theory went that different kinds of bone misalignments cause different times of disease.  If the bones were properly realigned, the disease would vanish.  This theory was called "osteopathy", and those who worked to realign bones were called "osteopaths".

As we know now, but no one knew then, bone alignment doesn't cause the flu.  It turned out that the germ theory of disease was correct, and we could categorize a number of diseases based on the germ that caused them.  We also found out that there were whole entire kingdoms of nature represented by germs: viruses, bacteria, protozoa, fungi, etc.

As new treatments emerged for disease based on the germ theory, the osteopaths incorporated those new treatments into their theories.  The idea was something like: a germ causes smallpox but perhaps most diseases are caused by bone misalignment instead.  But more disease treatments emerged from the germ theory, and bone misalignment proved ineffective, and the osteopaths kept incorporating what worked and discarding bone manipulation.  Eventually, although doctors of osteopathy existed, they were just medical doctors by another name.

My doctor acquaintance told the story with pride.  Plenty of people stubbornly cling to bad, unworkable ideas, but the osteopaths before him were real scientists.  They took what worked and discarded what didn't, even though it meant shrinking their theories, then abandoning them.  They cared more about getting answers then flattering their egos.  And that's why osteopaths still exist today, and are able to help people.

Throwing out what doesn't work is part of science.  You literally can't do science if you don't get rid of theories that don't work.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Freon_Bale
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #34 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:30pm
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Running Deer wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:23pm:
A couple of weeks ago, I was talking to a casual acquaintance who's a medical doctor.  His post-nominal said "DO" instead of "MD".  He's a surgeon, so he's not running some sort of quackery or scam.  I asked him what it means, and said "doctor of osteopathy".  I know that "osteopathy" would mean something like "bone disease", and asked him to clarify.  He told me a fascinating story.

It seems obvious to us now, but just 200 years ago no one knew what caused infectious diseases like smallpox, measles, and the flu.  In the flowering of science in the 19th century, dozens of theories were offered.  Some thought that small particles of disease would somehow enter the body and attack it, which were called germs.  (Essentially, the seeds of disease.)  Others thought that fluids or elements were misaligned, or their flow was blocked.

One group proposed that disease was caused by misaligned bones.  The theory went that different kinds of bone misalignments cause different times of disease.  If the bones were properly realigned, the disease would vanish.  This theory was called "osteopathy", and those who worked to realign bones were called "osteopaths".

As we know now, but no one knew then, bone alignment doesn't cause the flu.  It turned out that the germ theory of disease was correct, and we could categorize a number of diseases based on the germ that caused them.  We also found out that there were whole entire kingdoms of nature represented by germs: viruses, bacteria, protozoa, fungi, etc.

As new treatments emerged for disease based on the germ theory, the osteopaths incorporated those new treatments into their theories.  The idea was something like: a germ causes smallpox but perhaps most diseases are caused by bone misalignment instead.  But more disease treatments emerged from the germ theory, and bone misalignment proved ineffective, and the osteopaths kept incorporating what worked and discarding bone manipulation.  Eventually, although doctors of osteopathy existed, they were just medical doctors by another name.

My doctor acquaintance told the story with pride.  Plenty of people stubbornly cling to bad, unworkable ideas, but the osteopaths before him were real scientists.  They took what worked and discarded what didn't, even though it meant shrinking their theories, then abandoning them.  They cared more about getting answers then flattering their egos.  And that's why osteopaths still exist today, and are able to help people.

Throwing out what doesn't work is part of science.  You literally can't do science if you don't get rid of theories that don't work.


So slight modification to your story. I have worked with DOs, and even considered going that path as an undergrad. The term Osteopath is actually an insult to MDs, who the DO's refer to as Allopaths ('other' is what 'allo' means).

Also, DOs get all the same training as MD's, with the addition of 'manipulation', which is similar to what a chiropractor does (though based much more in science).
  
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #35 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:30pm
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Freon_Bale wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
If we are made in G-d's image, then should we not aspire to G-d's abilities?


"Companions, the creator seeks, not corpses--and not herds or believers either.  Fellow-creators the creator seeks--those who engrave new values on new tables."

"Companions, the creator seeks, and fellow-reapers: for everything is ripe for the harvest with him.  But he lacks the hundred sickles: so he plucks the ears of corn and is vexed."

"Companions, the creator seeks, and such as know how to sharpen their sickles.  Destroyers, will they be called, and despisers of good and evil.  But they are the reapers and rejoicers."

- Zarathustra, Thus Spake Zarathustra
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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EF
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #36 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:51pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 5:00am:
Let's not forget that it's only a minuscule minority among "the faithful" that believe in young Earth.


True, and I am not one of them.  But here's a link to a guy who IS one of them.

https://answersingenesis.org/bios/nathaniel-jeanson/
  

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FEZZILLA
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #37 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 12:26am
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Freon_Bale wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:24pm:
You are incorrect, sir. Even at the most basic level of science learning, understanding the contributions of our religious heritage are required and give us pride. Mendel, the father of modern genetics, was a monk. Any biologist would be able to tell you that, as well as other historical, and often religious, contributors of where science is today.

Yet as these pioneers of science learned more and more, Copernicus being a notable example, they could not help but realize that G-d's contributions to the world are easily explained as being natural. But what did his own religion do to Copernicus on hearing his blasphemy (that we are NOT the center of the universe, or do you still subscribe to this notion?). They ostracized him. Sounds like just what I said, religious leaders abusing science for their own ends, and in opposition of the science itself.

Religion's persecution of science has an ugly, and long, history. And all it did, as you are doing today, is delay the general populous understanding that religion is not the appropriate place to be looking for answers regarding the physical universe.

I am not only completely convinced of evolution, I am thrilled by it. Because it is a natural process, and not a divine one, we will (and can) manipulate it. This will lead to less disease, greater lifespans, and a fundamental change to our species that we direct. This is massively exciting.

If we are made in G-d's image, then should we not aspire to G-d's abilities?


Please show me the verse or passage in the Bible that explicitly says the earth is the center of the universe.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #38 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 11:31am
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FEZZILLA wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Please show me the verse or passage in the Bible that explicitly says the earth is the center of the universe.


I would never waste my time looking for such a thing, but your question implies two points.

1. That you believe everything the bible says.
2. That you do not believe that the Church, the group you claimed in a previous post was the creator of science, which you argued was the will of G-d, saw the Earth as the center of the universe.

If you are coming from this place, then nothing a scientist could say will change your views, because they are based on a choice you made, instead of on empirical evidence. That's fine, because I am assuming your belief (though sadly, not Faith, because you think you have proof of your belief) gives you comfort, but it is a false equivalency to compare your belief to actual science.

So when you say you 'don't believe' in evolution, you are assuming that the same choice you made in believing in G-d is the choice scientists made in 'believing' in evolution. This is massively not what is going on in the science community.
  
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Re: Will NASA Find Life On Mars?
Reply #39 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Please show me the verse or passage in the Bible that explicitly says the earth is the center of the universe.


There is no verse that explicitly says the earth is the center of the universe, just as there is no verse that explicitly says the earth is either 6,000 or 10,000 years old, depending on which genealogy one uses to date the moment of creation.  But there are verses from which it is logical to infer those things.  Having inferred those things, it is logical to continue believing them until sufficient, credible evidence to the contrary comes along.

According to Genesis, God made earth first.  Then the stars, the other planets, the sun, the moon, etc.  It is quite logical to infer that, having been made first, the earth was the center of the creation.  And it is true that people who later asserted that was not so were deemed heretics until it became impossible to believe the earth was the center of anything, let alone the universe.

It is also logical to infer from verses that refer to the “ends of the earth” and the “corners of the earth” that the earth is either flat or a cube.  Globes and circles do not have ends or corners.  And many people did believe that until sufficient, credible evidence to the contrary came along.  Amazingly, some still do.  Most flat earth societies are not serious, they’re just “drinking and marching societies,” but some really are serious.

It is logical to infer the earth is only 6,000 or 10,000 years old, depending on which genealogy one uses, too.  And many people did that until sufficient, credible evidence to the contrary came along.  I think sufficient, credible evidence has come along.  Others don’t.

But that does not mean the message of Genesis is wrong.  It just means the message of Genesis is something other than “the earth is 6,000 or 10,000 years old.”
  

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