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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump disappoints on Syria (Read 1,572 times)
Queshank
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #90 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 4:54pm:
He doesn't want to appear weak on Russia due to domestic, political considerations?

That seems to be where you're headed.


I absolutely think it's an element.  That's what I've been arguing with Lomelis and Demos both.

Lomelis thinks I'm blaming everyone else because I'm defendin muh boy Trump!

I'm not.  I'm reading the political landscape.  Or what I can see of it, mixed with a helping of "There is ample evidence to indicate this is a concern for presidents on both sides of the aisle." 

Quote:
If Trump can't change the geo-political status quo and genuinely wants to, then the deep state is worse than even right wingers fear. I'm not buying it, but the "Russia" consideration IRT Syria has some merit.


Well they're certainly getting a lot of support from the rank and file leftists now, ain't they? 

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BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Queshank
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #91 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:10pm
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Limey. wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
Almost nobody votes against democracy. I’m not sure there are any anti-democracy parties on American or British ballots.


I’m not fearmongering. These are genuine forces in current politics. Your President’s thought processes about the mostly foolish Russian conspiracy accusations are, to me, both opaque and of little interest.

I’m very interested in what that sideshow seems to illuminate, which is the clash of ideas I described.



Nope. Not at all. I’m desperately worried about it being subverted in order to effectively destroy itself.  A healthy democracy will usually only make 35%-45% of people happy with their government. That’s not a reason to be against the idea, nor fear it.


Yeah but the longer the same 35 - 45% of people stay happy with their government, the more likely we are to run into people opposing a government that only pleases 35-45% of the people.

In a democracy the happy people are supposed to rotate.  They haven't been.

This is what has been going on around the world.  The unhappy people have been being ignored.  And there just so happen to be enough of them to make radical differences at the ballot box.

That's what we're dealing with. 

And the longer those 35-45% of happy people continue to ignore it and resist "democracy" when they find themselves out of power, the stronger the anti democracy forces get. 

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #92 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:20pm
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Just a little thought experiment for you guys that has nothing to do with the thread, but everything to do with a conversation Limey and I have been having across many days and many threads.

A thought experiment reminiscent of when I asked on the boards "Why do they keep asking if Trump and his supporters will accept the election results?  It makes no sense?  It's obviously Democrats that are really going to have a problem if they lose." 

In the unlikely event of the Republicans maintaining power in November ... what's going to happen? 

We're seeing the stories about how the Russkies are going to steal the election ramping up in frequency again.  NPR was talking on the radio yesterday about whether or not the people can trust the results of the ballots.

So how will the left take it after months of predicting a blue wave, if the wave ends up crashing up against the realities of the economy and the lack of any evidence of Trump/Russia collusion and the relative peacefulness of the world?  (I heard an NPR pundit on the NPR Politics Podcast point that out.  "You know surprisingly for all the chaos, there hasn't really been that much unrest in the world.  At least not as much as you'd think for all Trump's bull in a china shop antics.")  And it's not that unlikely that the Republicans hold the House.  Nate Silver is giving them a 1 in 4 chance.  (The same chances he gave Trump in 2016....)

If Democrats and antifa and just plain shitheads are rioting and tearing apart major cities ... who will be to blame if the federal government enacts martial law in some cities as they had to many times in the past (most recently in 1961)?

Who will the anti democracy forces be?  The ones rioting and tearing up the streets because they disagree with the election results?  Or will the federal government actually have become a fascist dictatorship to restore order because Trump is president?

Queshank

  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Limey.
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #93 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 4:13am
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Queshank wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:10pm:
Yeah but the longer the same 35 - 45% of people stay happy with their government, the more likely we are to run into people opposing a government that only pleases 35-45% of the people.

In a democracy the happy people are supposed to rotate.  They haven't been.

This is what has been going on around the world.  The unhappy people have been being ignored.  And there just so happen to be enough of them to make radical differences at the ballot box.

That's what we're dealing with. 

And the longer those 35-45% of happy people continue to ignore it and resist "democracy" when they find themselves out of power, the stronger the anti democracy forces get. 

Queshank



This is certainly part of the problem we are facing (the problem of regression from democracy).

How much of it is a matter of perception, I don't know, because a large amount of what needs to be looked at is qualitative rather than quantitative and inevitably there will be noise in the signal.

The point you make... Quote:
This is what has been going on around the world.  The unhappy people have been being ignored.  And there just so happen to be enough of them to make radical differences at the ballot box.

That's what we're dealing with. 

And the longer those 35-45% of happy people continue to ignore it and resist "democracy" when they find themselves out of power, the stronger the anti democracy forces get.


...is a good one.

Getting back to quantitative v qualitative, though, it helps illuminate something that worries me. The 'unhappy with democracy' people have a fairly new commonplace, which is that 'the two parties are the same really'.

I'm not sure this is true. Certainly in UK terms, it really really isn't true at all.

Yes, there will be continuity after a change of government in foreign policy, many laws etc., but our two parties are radically opposed on some social, and many economic, issues.

If you were an anti-democrat, say, to pluck a name at random, a Dave Popov or a Jenny Wing-Li, would the meme 'voting doesn't change anything' be a useful one to push?

Reaching for my aluminium foil headgear here, but if you were a fairly high positioned business geezer, would there may be a confluence of interest with Dave and Jenny in that their dream system includes all kinds of benefits to the powerful.


The anti-democracy thing.... bothers me.
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Demos
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #94 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:31pm
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Queshank wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 4:38pm:
But Syria doesn't need to be connected to Iran policy for the "Trump is weak on Russia" minefield to have an influence.  And Syria is definitely connected to our Russia policy in the political mind.  That's undeniable based simply on the sheer volume of punditry penned articles connecting our Russia policy to our Syrian policy.

What pundits connect doesn't seem to always be connected within the administration. Several administration officials have made statements limiting any strikes against the regime to retaliation for chemical weapons attacks. So, basically, Assad can retake Idlib (with the help of Russia and Iran) as long as he doesn't use chemical weapons to do it.

And our Syria policy, even this latest pronouncement of an "indefinite" military stay, is definitely more about Iran at this point (as ISIS is really no longer a factor). Even our discussions with Russia are about getting Iran out of Syria (not getting Russia out of Syria). The "indefinite" military stay also has a pretty definite end - when Assad retakes Idlib - since we're not going to actually use military force to overthrow Assad or even remove Iran from Syria. Even as the new strategy was announced, emphasis was placed on "a major diplomatic push to achieve American objectives, according to senior State Department officials," rather than a new military mission  (Source).

Quote:
What changed for Trump?

What changed when he ordered air strikes against Assad? That's something he had been opposed to at least as far back as 2013, including saying Obama needed Congressional approval for an attack (Source). I don't think domestic politics was a consideration then (reports about the decision suggested it was the result of lobbying from Ivanka and others, as well as showing Trump photos), and I don't think it is now. He's been given the option of sanctions, which he has used in other situations, and I would assume he's been told we will eventually be pulling troops out (since we're realistically not staying there indefinitely).

Quote:
Why didn't Obama have any flexibility to work with Russia before the 2012 elections?  Was it because the wrong move could have consequences in the election?  Like the elections we have coming up?

Honestly, I had to go back and look up that quote to even figure out what it was referring to, so I would need invest a little more time and research to answer that.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2018 at 1:50pm by Demos »  
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #95 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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Jasmine wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 1:57am:
From TheGuardian.com:


Full article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/05/syria-donald-trump-idlib-slaughter...

This is a big setback for Trump, at least in my eyes. I know there are conservatives here who believe we should remain active in Syria. I, on the other hand, feel that we should just leave and let the country turn into a giant blood-filled crater. Now Trump doesn't even plan to pull our troops out and will instead keep them there "indefinitely."

I just fail to see how Syria is our business. I fail to see why we should risk the life of one single American soldier for these muslim freaks. Especially appalling is that, in opposing Asswad and the Russians, we are basically siding with terrorist groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda (correct me if I'm wrong). It just doesn't make sense.

Let all sides in this war slaughter each other, and whatever's left at the end of it, it'll be easier for us to slap around.


Jasmine,

This response is one of your fictional 'holding the president accountable' threads for the purpose of supporting your claim that you are not just another Trump zombie.

I don't buy it.

Your actual message here is that Trump isn't going far enough to the Right for you, not that he chose to do the wrong thing. Let them all die is your (consistent) solution to all problems...except over-population of course. Doesn't your crazy religion believe that all babies are born in sin? Innocent little babies are sinners, what an insane concept. Why do you then discriminate between the middle eastern sinners and the ones you produce internally?

jas·mine
ˈjazmən/
noun
noun: jasmine; plural noun: jasmines

    see Hypocrite
  
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Lomelis
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #96 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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Queshank wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 3:38pm:
Okay.  Cool beans.  I'm the biggest Trump supporter you know.

Now because you were like Mueller... the man in the white hat extracting that confession out of that Que who for reasons nobody can understand resists the completely innocuous and irrelevant label ...

... what's changed in any of my arguments and what's changed about the reality of the situation?

Trump has still talked repeatedly about pulling out of Syria since the campaign.

Trump has repeatedly continued to talk about it while facing universal opposition to withdrawing US troops from Iraq.

Primarily from warhawks (and people who legitimately disagree) within his own administration.

Democrats.

The media punditry.

Members from within his own cabinet who have gone on the record stating they are working from within his administration to countermand his orders and "worst instincts" (instincts that lead to ridiculous ideas like ...withdrawing troops from Syria.)

All your need to scratch your Trump Derangement Syndrome itch has done is waste a bunch of time and distract from an issue you've dodged engaging on instead by making it about me.  Like Wadsworth.  Like billy.  Like Ulysses.  Like Vypr.  (You're in good company these days.)

That's what's going on all over the nation.  We're all being forced (just for you Lom) into wasting all this crappity smacking time while half the nation can't get over themselves.

Reality is still going on all around you while you're on vacation tho guys.

Queshank


The reality is that he is not being -forced- to do jack shit.

I do find it interesting that you all of sudden remembered that you were arguing that he is being forced.

You:  He's being forced!

Me:  No he's not.

You:  I never said dat!  U has TDS!

Me:  You've got your head so far up his ass that you are pulling a Wads and can't remember your own argument.

You:  I neva say dat!  Show me da quote!

I show you the quote.

You:  He be forced hard@334!  Arg! MAGA!  Deep state, Fake News Obama, LBJ, Clinton!!#3434

Me:  I certainly hope Wads somehow got a hold of your password or something.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Lomelis
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #97 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:31pm
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Queshank wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
If you don't give a shit about getting our troops out of Syria wtf are you even here posting about?  What's your crappity smacking point? [quote]



I don't give a crappity smack about appearing weak or appearing to capitulate to Russia.

I don't think Trump does either.

Quote:
Jesus crappity smacking Christ.  Now you're completely disassociating.  I'm not sure when I became Trump in your mind, but ... you've got it bad man.  You've got it bad.

Queshank


You've got your head so far up that when I talk shit about Trump you think I'm talking about you.

Now that's bad.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Limey.
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #98 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:57pm
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Lomelis wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:26pm:
The reality is that he is not being -forced- to do jack shit.

I do find it interesting that you all of sudden remembered that you were arguing that he is being forced.

You:  He's being forced!

Me:  No he's not.

You:  I never said dat!  U has TDS!

Me:  You've got your head so far up his ass that you are pulling a Wads and can't remember your own argument.

You:  I neva say dat!  Show me da quote!

I show you the quote.

You:  He be forced hard@334!  Arg! MAGA!  Deep state, Fake News Obama, LBJ, Clinton!!#3434

Me:  I certainly hope Wads somehow got a hold of your password or something.




This is a candidate for Funny 2018. Is it 2018? I’m a bit sleep deprived and drunk.


Lom - can I call you Lom?- I suspect Mr. Shank is so in-character that he’s actually convincing even clever posters like you that he is warm for Mr. Trump.


As a semi-interested outsider (my feelings about Mr. Trump aren’t bound up with any visceral national tribe) I can see it’s a well constructed act which occasionally goes native.


Can I just take this opportunity to remind you all that  the verb “to trump” means “to commit an act of flatulence” in British English? 


My kids now refer to farts as “Donalds”, and in the event of hearing one say “Mr. President! What an honour!”
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Trump disappoints on Syria
Reply #99 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Limey. wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:57pm:
This is a candidate for Funny 2018. Is it 2018? I’m a bit sleep deprived and drunk.


Lom - can I call you Lom?- I suspect Mr. Shank is so in-character that he’s actually convincing even clever posters like you that he is warm for Mr. Trump.


As a semi-interested outsider (my feelings about Mr. Trump aren’t bound up with any visceral national tribe) I can see it’s a well constructed act which occasionally goes native.


Can I just take this opportunity to remind you all that  the verb “to trump” means “to commit an act of flatulence” in British English? 


My kids now refer to farts as “Donalds”, and in the event of hearing one say “Mr. President! What an honour!” 


Jesus I hope so.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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