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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die' (Read 1,395 times)
Greg55_99
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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #90 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:04am
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petep wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 9:55am:
Yes. Greg, I’m trying to be patient here. You can google this on your own. Historically only direct deaths were counted. One month after Maria the cdc decided under pressure from Puerto Rico that they would now include direct and indirect deaths. This led to pr commissioning the german report that revised the number drastically upward.

I am not arguing that this method of counting direct plus indirect is not a good measurement of a storms impact. It probably is. But it was not the method used historically.

Read this New York Times article and it explains it clearly. Especially the section “is it a valid method”.

It has been approved as valid but is still different than what has been used historically

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/06/02/us/puerto-rico-death-tol...

That is my point.


This is from the article YOU linked to:

Quote:
Is it legitimate to count both direct and indirect deaths?

The federal government says yes. In relation to hurricane deaths, the term “direct” means those that occurred from drowning or other effects of the storm itself. “Indirect” deaths include those in which related factors, such as difficulty reaching a hospital for care, or trouble refilling medical prescriptions, played a role.

George Washington researchers said they found that doctors in Puerto Rico at the time of the storm were not aware of new guidelines from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, released the month after the hurricane, which recommend that doctors also consider a natural disaster’s indirect impacts in assessing how to tally deaths.


Now, I see no evidence of any historic use of the direct number of deaths ONLY.  As I've pointed out, at least since Katrina, the government has used both direct AND indirect deaths in the total tally.

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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #91 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:15am
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I think part of the disconnect, here, is that when a disaster like this hits someplace like Texas, the response is swift enough that the indirect death count is lower.  Power gets turned on quicker, emergency crews are on-deck faster, roads are cleared in a timely manner.

In PR, power was out for many months, roads were impassible for months, etc.  The indirect body count of a storm like Harvey would definitely be smaller because services were all restored so quickly.  They have to acknowledge indirect deaths 2 months out, because there was no power or access for months.

This is partially due to PR's own brittle infrastructure, partially due to limitations of ports, and partially due to FEMA's tepid response (which Trump is responsible for).

Trump made it all far worse when he stood there like an idiot tossing paper towels at people, pooh-poohing damage reports, comparing it against a "real disaster" like Katrina, and failing to restore power as promptly as we could have.

And he continues to make it worse by doubling down on this myopic stammering that only a few dozen people died in PR.
  

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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #92 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:20am
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Greg, from tbe article


George Washington researchers said they found that doctors in Puerto Rico at the time of the storm were not aware of new guidelines from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, released the month after the hurricane, which recommend that doctors also consider a natural disaster’s indirect impacts in assessing how to tally deaths.
———-
So doctors in pr released the number 64, which was consistent with the standard method.

The cdc changed the guidelines AFTER the storm and the numbers were revised.

No one went back to revise numbers from all prior storms with this new cdc method.
  
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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #93 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:21am
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petep wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:20am:
Greg, from tbe article


George Washington researchers said they found that doctors in Puerto Rico at the time of the storm were not aware of new guidelines from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, released the month after the hurricane, which recommend that doctors also consider a natural disaster’s indirect impacts in assessing how to tally deaths.
———-
So doctors in pr released the number 64, which was consistent with the standard method.

The cdc changed the guidelines AFTER the storm and the numbers were revised.

No one went back to revise numbers from all prior storms with this new cdc method.


Would you like me to repost the CDC report from 2005 concerning Katrina?

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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #94 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:24am
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Greg55_99 wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:21am:
Would you like me to repost the CDC report from 2005 concerning Katrina?

Greg


Here is addl info.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/apnews.com/amp/910d274805054e3fa8ebf07a550c3920

I’ll look up the cdc info.

But this clearly states it had historically been direct deaths only with certified death certificates and this was recently changed.
  
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Greg55_99
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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #95 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:30am
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petep wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:24am:
Here is addl info.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/apnews.com/amp/910d274805054e3fa8ebf07a550c3920

I’ll look up the cdc info.

But this clearly states it had historically been direct deaths only with certified death certificates and this was recently changed.


This is what YOUR link says:

Quote:
HOW ARE HURRICANE-RELATED DEATHS COUNTED?

Disaster deaths tend to be placed in two categories, “direct” and “indirect.” For a hurricane, direct deaths include people who drown in a storm surge or flooding, are hit by flying debris or crushed in a wind-toppled building. Indirect deaths include heart attacks, house fires, electrocutions from downed power lines, car accidents and others fatalities that are less clearly tied to the elements.

The National Hurricane Center, when it gives hurricane tallies, only reports direct deaths. But some experts disagree with that. “If you’re looking at people who died from the fact that their dialysis equipment didn’t work or their respirators didn’t work because of power failures, and they wouldn’t have died otherwise, I think those deaths could — and should — be counted,” said Kathleen Tierney, former director of the University of Colorado’s Natural Hazards Center.


That is one government agency.  Period.  The CDC uses DIRECT AND INDIRECT deaths in the total tally.

Greg


  

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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #96 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:47am
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I must have missed the MSM articles blaming Obama for all of the indirect hurricane deaths on his watch.

That's the double standard that we're talking about.
  

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Greg55_99
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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #97 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:57am
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PaleoCon wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:47am:
I must have missed the MSM articles blaming Obama for all of the indirect hurricane deaths on his watch.

That's the double standard that we're talking about.


Bullshit

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/a-week-later-hurricane-matthew-deat...

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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #98 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Greg55_99 wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:57am:


Posting an article where Obama is not even mentioned to prove that Obama was blamed IS bullsh*t.

Care to try again?

  

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Greg55_99
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Re: Trump falsely claims nearly 3,000 Americans in Puerto Rico 'did not die'
Reply #99 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:09am
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PaleoCon wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:02am:
Posting an article where Obama is not even mentioned to prove that Obama was blamed IS bullsh*t.

Care to try again?



I don't have to.  Direct AND indirect deaths WERE discussed in the MSM.  Would YOU care to post an article where someone in the Obama Administration said they didn't happen?

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