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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke? (Read 306 times)
Limey.
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #10 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 2:53pm:
It helps to support your case if one can prove it is fictional.  You know, like glaring historical accounts that can be proven false through uncovered history.  Take for instance Jesus, truth or fiction?  If he never existed proving it should be relatively easy.  It is not, as there are other historical accounts far closer to the events that substantiate this man the Bible spoke of.


I think it’s a straw man actually Seawolf to suggest there’s a powerful movement saying ‘Jesus is fictional’.


He pretty certainly existed; the debate is on different ground.
  

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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:18pm
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Limey. wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm:
I think it’s a straw man actually Seawolf to suggest there’s a powerful movement saying ‘Jesus is fictional’.


He pretty certainly existed; the debate is on different ground.


Actually, the question of his existence is moot. He's definitely partly fictional, the question is more what part is fictional and what part isn't. It's likely that the nonfictional part is so unremarkable as to make him virtually a fictional character. Just as if someone two thousand years from now tells my story and adds that I had superpowers, could heal the blind, raise the dead from their grave and turn water into wine. Someone could prove that I existed and it wouldn't prove that I could do those things.
  

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Seawolf
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #12 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:05pm
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Limey. wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm:
I think it’s a straw man actually Seawolf to suggest there’s a powerful movement saying ‘Jesus is fictional’.


He pretty certainly existed; the debate is on different ground.

I used it as an example, not a straw man.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Seawolf
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #13 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:07pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:18pm:
Actually, the question of his existence is moot. He's definitely partly fictional, the question is more what part is fictional and what part isn't. It's likely that the nonfictional part is so unremarkable as to make him virtually a fictional character. Just as if someone two thousand years from now tells my story and adds that I had superpowers, could heal the blind, raise the dead from their grave and turn water into wine. Someone could prove that I existed and it wouldn't prove that I could do those things.

Except there are witnesses.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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BowHunter
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #14 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:30pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:07pm:
Except there are witnesses.


How many of these "witnesses" gave undelayed direct written accounts of what they saw?

I believe that number is zero.
  

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Limey.
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #15 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:38pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:07pm:
Except there are witnesses.



Hm, well.


Yes there certainly were witnesses to the life of the historical Jesus.


It’s not really any kind of proof at all to have what amounts to supernatural activity simply asserted, is it?

Archæologists recently found a high status citadel complex on Tintagel, exactly contemporary with the time frame given for King Arthur.

It’s likely there was a historic Arthur. Hard to prove as we’ve only three dozen or so written documents from AD 409-600 in England.


Those legends; a magical sword, the not-dead-but-sleeping. The once and future King.


Are they true?
  

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Seawolf
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #16 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:45pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:30pm:
How many of these "witnesses" gave undelayed direct written accounts of what they saw?

I believe that number is zero.
sorry, those remarks are purely b.s.. 
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Seawolf
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #17 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:51pm
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Limey. wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:38pm:
Hm, well.


Yes there certainly were witnesses to the life of the historical Jesus.


It’s not really any kind of proof at all to have what amounts to supernatural activity simply asserted, is it?

Archæologists recently found a high status citadel complex on Tintagel, exactly contemporary with the time frame given for King Arthur.

It’s likely there was a historic Arthur. Hard to prove as we’ve only three dozen or so written documents from AD 409-600 in England.


Those legends; a magical sword, the not-dead-but-sleeping. The once and future King.


Are they true?

I have cited numerous sources which you wish to ignore.  Not much else to discuss if you simply wish not to accept what they personally witnessed.  Aside from that what are you showing me that should bring me any doubt?  You not one clue regarding what our family witnessed and nothing you can offer will explain it away.  Yes, you can laugh at me, try to shame me or attempt to embarrass me but it has zero bearing.  You are betting your soul and the cost of being wrong is eternal.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Limey.
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #18 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:36pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:51pm:
I have cited numerous sources which you wish to ignore.  Not much else to discuss if you simply wish not to accept what they personally witnessed.  Aside from that what are you showing me that should bring me any doubt?  You not one clue regarding what our family witnessed and nothing you can offer will explain it away.  Yes, you can laugh at me, try to shame me or attempt to embarrass me but it has zero bearing.  You are betting your soul and the cost of being wrong is eternal.



I’m not trying to shame you, laugh at you or embarrass you. Stop being so paranoid.


We’re talking about the difference between proof and belief.

There’s no spin on this ball.


I do wonder why you feel a need to try proving stuff though.

If you want to prove the divinity of Christ tova non believer you’ll need some better ammunition than anything you’ve shot so far.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Seawolf
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Re: Historical Differences In The Accounts Of Jesus Birth according to Matthew/Luke?
Reply #19 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 6:23am
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Limey. wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:36pm:
I’m not trying to shame you, laugh at you or embarrass you. Stop being so paranoid.


We’re talking about the difference between proof and belief.

There’s no spin on this ball.


I do wonder why you feel a need to try proving stuff though.

If you want to prove the divinity of Christ tova non believer you’ll need some better ammunition than anything you’ve shot so far.

You have offered nothing but out and out dismissal of links of history and evidence.  No point in carrying on this conversation when the end result will be the same.  After all, your choice and not my job to try and convince you otherwise.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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