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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Our ally murdering people? (Read 294 times)
Waking in a Wally Wonderland
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #10 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:32pm
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Demos wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:11pm:
Well, arms sales is huge leverage with Saudi Arabia. We've completely ruled that out.

And we just ruled out using the threat of reduced arms sales, so how would we get Saudi Arabia to cooperate in any such deal? Serious question, not being flippant.

Have you been surveying the landscape of the Middle East lately and who Turkey has been playing footsie with? If we're hoping/planning to deal with Syria, Iranian influence in the region, etc., it would be good to have our NATO ally back on board and working with us (and we have common cause in some of these areas). Turkey moving closer to Iran and Russia doesn't further those aims, and resolving this issue would be a step towards MAYBE repairing what is a seriously broken relationship. And it's just a decent thing to do (side benefit being it helps our reputation and makes us look good - project some soft power baby).


Turkey and Saudi Arabia are Sunnis, while Iran is the Mother of all Shiites. Although the enemy of my enemy does place Shiite States on the same side as Sunni State, from time to time, even the differences between Sunni's pale in comparison to those Suni's have with the guys who are waiting for the 13th Iman to spring forth out of the well where he's been hiding so they can create a world wide Caliphate beginning by conquering all the Sunni Muslim middle eastern states.

I think the US can work best behind the scenes trying to get these two feuding allies to get along.
  

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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #11 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:35pm
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Waking in a Wally Wonderland wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
BTW, why is a dispute between two of our allies our problem to jump right in the middle of?


Really, its an ally murdering (perhaps kidnapping) someone critical of the current government in another country. This is the type of thing that countries like North Korea and Russia routinely do. America should be standing against these type of things.

As a side point, everything that Trump has criticized Iran for, Saudi Arabia does too. Geopolitics aside, Iran is probably the better country. At least it is sort of a democracy.
  
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #12 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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Waking in a Wally Wonderland wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
Turkey and Saudi Arabia are Sunnis, while Iran is the Mother of all Shiites. Although the enemy of my enemy does place Shiite States on the same side as Sunni State, from time to time, even the differences between Sunni's pale in comparison to those Suni's have with the guys who are waiting for the 13th Iman to spring forth out of the well where he's been hiding so they can create a world wide Caliphate beginning by conquering all the Sunni Muslim middle eastern states.

I think the US can work best behind the scenes trying to get these two feuding allies to get along. 


It's really not that simple. The Muslim Brotherhood is also Sunni; however, Saudi Arabia played a significant role in the coup in Egypt. Turkey backed the Muslim Brotherhood. Turkey is also on decent terms with Iran, especially considering that they are on opposite sides of the Syrian conflict. There is also the situation with Qatar, where Saudi Arabia tried to weaken/overthrow their government. The Turkish government provided support to the Qataris.

The chances of this blowing over are nowhere near as high as you think they are.
  
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #13 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:46pm
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Waking in a Wally Wonderland wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:32pm:
Turkey and Saudi Arabia are Sunnis, while Iran is the Mother of all Shiites...

There's certainly a sectarian divide, but you might as well mention the ethnic divide as well - Turk vs Arab. Wheels within wheels.

I wouldn't count on sectarian divisions overriding what Turkey views as their national interests.

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I think the US can work best behind the scenes trying to get these two feuding allies to get along. 

With what? Again serious question. We just publicly ruled out using our most significant threat.
  
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #14 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:02pm
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Again, why should we care? How does Saudi Arabia murdering a Turkey journalist affect *US*?

If they murdered one of ours, that would be a different story.
  


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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #15 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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Demos wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 3:27pm:
Apparently our (U.S.) response, is to do nothing:

Trump says curbing arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to missing journalist is ‘not acceptable’

If we do nothing about this, it will make our relations with Turkey worse (and they're not go as it is).


Big surprise.

Of course Toad doesn't want to take any meaningful action against the Saudis for (probably) murdering a Saudi journalist in its Ankara embassy.

After all, we all know that the press is The Enemy Of The People.


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Waking in a Wally Wonderland
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #16 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:13pm
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SmileyPossibly Logical wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 4:41pm:
It's really not that simple. The Muslim Brotherhood is also Sunni; however, Saudi Arabia played a significant role in the coup in Egypt. Turkey backed the Muslim Brotherhood. Turkey is also on decent terms with Iran, especially considering that they are on opposite sides of the Syrian conflict. There is also the situation with Qatar, where Saudi Arabia tried to weaken/overthrow their government. The Turkish government provided support to the Qataris.

The chances of this blowing over are nowhere near as high as you think they are.

I think we probably are already very involved behind the scene, just has we have no doubt been involved in applying pressure on Turkey to release Pastor Andrew Brunson.  Turkey is demanding we extradite Turkish ex-patriot Fethullah Gulen, so they can summarily execute him.  This is why Turkey grabbed Pastor Brunson as a hostage.  Taking hostages for political bargaining is an old Islamic dirty trick instructed by Muhammed himself in the Koran.  Turkeys been playing a pretty dirty game for quite some time, by the way.  Even Obama had his fill with them.  Trump had been criticized for being too friendly with them, remember?

No doubt it's a mess.  However, time for these Allies to put on their big boy pants and try working out their differences in  civilized ways.  If they can't, then perhaps the Paul (Rand and Ron) alternative position ought to at least be considered before the US jumps right into the middle of a growing problem between Islamic states in the Middle East.
  

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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #17 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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Waking in a Wally Wonderland wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:13pm:
I think we probably are already very involved behind the scene, just has we have no doubt been involved in applying pressure on Turkey to release Pastor Andrew Brunson...

We've been quite public in what we're doing on that front. We publicly applied sanctions and other economic pressures on Turkey which have resulted in the pastor's release (just reported a few hours ago). And if Turkey doesn't release him, you can expect all that to reapplied.

Would we be willing to do the same to the Saudis? Doesn't seem like it.
  
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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #18 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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Let's say Saudi Arabia says, "Okay, you caught us. We murdered the guy. Sliced and diced him into little bitty pieces. So what?"

What do you think we as a country should do in response?

Attack them? Of course not.

Apply sanctions against them? That'd be fine with me.

Disassociate ourselves with them completely? That'd be fine with me, too.

Go to the U.N. and complain? Oh, please no.
  


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Re: Our ally murdering people?
Reply #19 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:32pm
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Jasmine wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:24pm:
What do you think we as a country should do in response?

We can cut them off financially.

It's not like this is the first issue we've had with the Saudis. They're using our weapons and intelligence to kill innocent civilians in Yemen (and we're being implicated in the process). They funded the Taliban and the madrassas along the Pakistan-Taliban border which created them. More broadly, they've been responsible for the spread of Wahhabism throughout the Islamic world.

Like our relationship with Pakistan, we keep maintaining it even though it probably hurts us much more than it helps.
  
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