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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How America feels about Trump (Read 237 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #20 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:46pm
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Jasmine wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
True or False:

If we are in a bad trade deal, and we force a new deal that is more beneficial to us, that is a good thing.

True but I think there is good reason to think we are likely to have a trade war rather than a better trade deal.

We're making a good trade deal less likely.

And I am not sure that free trade is the goal. I think there may be some anti-trade sentiment lurking in the background. A desire for tariffs for their own sake.
  

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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #21 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:46pm:
True but I think there is good reason to think we are likely to have a trade war rather than a better trade deal.

We're making a good trade deal less likely.

And I am not sure that free trade is the goal. I think there may be some anti-trade sentiment lurking in the background. A desire for tariffs for their own sake.


If I'm not mistaken, we renogotiated a deal with Canada that turned out for our benefit. It wasnt a prolonged trade war.

Your second part is troubling. I hope your suspicion is wrong.
  


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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #22 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:39pm:
That would be a poor read and bad reasoning.

The economy did great during this time. But it was not because of tariffs. It was in spite of them.

We also had price controls in US history, not to mention incredibly high personal income tax rates. And we had high growth.

But who would be so foolish as to say that such growth was caused by price controls or high taxes?


No, you got it right early in your post.  IN SPITE OF tariffs, we grew economically. In the free trade era that the neocons loved so dearly, we declined in quite a few production sectors. Tariffs, in addition to funding the government without the need for federal income taxes, have either gotten us a better deal or kept our domestic industries strong in the past. That's why they never fell out of favor until recent times.

Consider this: after 1941, our industrial base was so strong and deep that this nation very quickly converted to supply our war needs and churned out the finest military hardware in the world at that time. 

That industrial base had been nurtured in an environment of tariff protections over the previous 100 years and more.  Today, if another world war was upon us, we'd be lucky if we could kick our way out of a wet paper bag thanks to the free trade zealots and the demand for cheap goods. We've outsourced too much KNOWLEDGE by outsourcing our manufacturing.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #23 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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Jasmine wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
If I'm not mistaken, we renogotiated a deal with Canada that turned out for our benefit. It wasnt a prolonged trade war.


It certainly did not turn out to be a long trade war but I disagree that the new deal is necessarily better.

Quote:
The first change is the introduction of two measures pertaining to the auto industry. The agreement requires that, to avoid tariffs, 75% of an automobile’s content originate within North America — an increase from 62.5% — in order to reduce imports of components from Asia. It also requires that by 2023, 40% to 45% of production come from workers who are paid an average of more than $16 per hour, well above Mexican wage levels.

This will bring some benefits to some American auto workers, at the expense of everybody else. Not only will consumers face higher costs for autos; the disruption of existing efficient supply chains may even leave the U.S. auto industry as a whole worse off, as it undermines the international competitiveness of North American output.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/we-could-have-had-a-better-deal-than-this-new-...

I do think saving NAFTA is better than having no deal at all. But I don't see this as a big improvement over NAFTA.
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Your second part is troubling. I hope your suspicion is wrong.

I do too but I would be shocked if that were the case. Their arguments mirror those of protectionists. The only novel thing about it is this whole shtick about Trump being a wheeler-dealer who is going to "get us a better deal."

But if you think industry perks come at the expense of living standards and economic growth, the entire project seems silly.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #24 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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PaleoCon wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:06pm:
In the free trade era that the neocons loved so dearly, we declined in quite a few production sectors. Tariffs, in addition to funding the government without the need for federal income taxes, have either gotten us a better deal or kept our domestic industries strong in the past. That's why they never fell out of favor until recent times.

That's completely wrong. We keep producing more every year, year over year. This idea that we have weakened our production capacity is a myth.

Tariffs have been seen as a detriment to growth since at-least 1776, if not earlier.

We're turning our backs on several hundred years of scientific knowledge when we support tariffs.
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Consider this: after 1941, our industrial base was so strong and deep that this nation very quickly converted to supply our war needs and churned out the finest military hardware in the world at that time. 


Yes, and it is even stronger today.

Quote:
That industrial base had been nurtured in an environment of tariff protections over the previous 100 years and more.  Today, if another world war was upon us, we'd be lucky if we could kick our way out of a wet paper bag thanks to the free trade zealots and the demand for cheap goods. We've outsourced too much KNOWLEDGE by outsourcing our manufacturing.

No, we have not outsourced our manufacturing. The US produces more manufacturing output now than ever.

What has changed is the amount of labor needed in the production process. Now we use robots and automated processes. We use a lot less labor. Capitalism and technological innovation has transformed how we manufacture things.

It seems to me you are making the argument that tariffs are beneficial to an economy. You don't seem to see them as something we understand as a detriment to growth.

I say we we grew in spite of tariffs. It almost seems like you would say the opposite- that we can include them as a source of economic growth.
  

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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #25 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Garden of Earthly Berts wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
Trump won

Get over it.


The North won in the Civil War. Get over it.
  
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Re: How America feels about Trump
Reply #26 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Freon_Bale wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 9:56am:
The North won in the Civil War. Get over it.


I thought it was the War of Northern Aggression...

Roll Eyes
  

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