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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) overview of "this Russia thing" (Read 553 times)
Queshank
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #10 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:05pm
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Greg55_99 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 12:49pm:
Dems took over the House Q.  Number of seats is pretty big.  In the end, it's like being "A little bit pregnant". 


Sure.  I guess.  Remember how the Republicans repeated the strategies they used to take 63 seats in the House and won the White House in 2012? 

Yeah me neither.

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BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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forgotten centrist
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #11 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:58pm
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First, your article protests the Mueller investigation by saying it's only purpose is to attack Trump.  Why?  Because Mueller himself can't prosecute or press charges -- only a congressional impeachment can do that.

That's myopic.  With that logic, there'd never be any point in investigating any president, ever.  If Trump were let off the hook merely because he is president, it would set the precedent that the POTUS can act with impunity, so long as he can secure enough senate votes to avoid impeachment.

The Mueller investigation is building the case.  We don't yet have the facts and details Mueller has.  If he presents an iron-clad case, then it would be on trumpublican senators to take the heat (and electoral distress) for protecting Trump.  They might not.  Even if impeachment never comes into play, the whole exercise is blowing political winds at all levels.

More importantly, the investigation is shining a bright light on Russian election-meddling efforts.  This by itself is a worthy endeavor.

Finally, if Trump is indeed altering foreign policy to benefit his foreign patrons, as seems to be the case with Russia and Saudi Arabia at least, then the heat from Mueller's case will limit the damage Trump can cause.  It will give congress cover, for instance, to put legislation into place to sanction Russia, rebuild security partnerships with neighboring states, and act to limit Saudi adventurism.
  

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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #12 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:05pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:58pm:
First, your article protests the Mueller investigation by saying it's only purpose is to attack Trump.  Why?  Because Mueller himself can't prosecute or press charges -- only a congressional impeachment can do that.

That's myopic.  With that logic, there'd never be any point in investigating any president, ever.  If Trump were let off the hook merely because he is president, it would set the precedent that the POTUS can act with impunity, so long as he can secure enough senate votes to avoid impeachment.

The Mueller investigation is building the case.  We don't yet have the facts and details Mueller has.  If he presents an iron-clad case, then it would be on trumpublican senators to take the heat (and electoral distress) for protecting Trump.  They might not.  Even if impeachment never comes into play, the whole exercise is blowing political winds at all levels.

More importantly, the investigation is shining a bright light on Russian election-meddling efforts.  This by itself is a worthy endeavor.

Finally, if Trump is indeed altering foreign policy to benefit his foreign patrons, as seems to be the case with Russia and Saudi Arabia at least, then the heat from Mueller's case will limit the damage Trump can cause.  It will give congress cover, for instance, to put legislation into place to sanction Russia, rebuild security partnerships with neighboring states, and act to limit Saudi adventurism.


Well if anything it's helped drain the swamp.  Many of his associates should not have been anywhere near anything to do with government.
  

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Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Queshank
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #13 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:15pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:58pm:
First, your article protests the Mueller investigation by saying it's only purpose is to attack Trump.  Why?  Because Mueller himself can't prosecute or press charges -- only a congressional impeachment can do that.

That's myopic.  With that logic, there'd never be any point in investigating any president, ever.  If Trump were let off the hook merely because he is president, it would set the precedent that the POTUS can act with impunity, so long as he can secure enough senate votes to avoid impeachment.

The Mueller investigation is building the case.  We don't yet have the facts and details Mueller has.  If he presents an iron-clad case, then it would be on trumpublican senators to take the heat (and electoral distress) for protecting Trump.  They might not.  Even if impeachment never comes into play, the whole exercise is blowing political winds at all levels.

More importantly, the investigation is shining a bright light on Russian election-meddling efforts.  This by itself is a worthy endeavor.

Finally, if Trump is indeed altering foreign policy to benefit his foreign patrons, as seems to be the case with Russia and Saudi Arabia at least, then the heat from Mueller's case will limit the damage Trump can cause.  It will give congress cover, for instance, to put legislation into place to sanction Russia, rebuild security partnerships with neighboring states, and act to limit Saudi adventurism.


This response of yours is a perfect opportunity for me to illustrate the point I've been hitting for 2 years now.

Whole lot of "if's" in there FC.  Whole lotta "ifs."  Big and important "ifs."

And yet it's something the LNF Crack Legal Team, and far too many Democrats, have gone all in on.

Too many people are basing their entire 2020 campaign strategy on "if."

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
I am not aware of any article
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #14 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:23pm
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If your point is that democrats are falling down on the job by not building and presenting their own cohesive vision for government, prosperity, and security, I completely agree.

If your point is that democrats needn't bother investigating Trump until they get their own house in order, I completely disagree.

The government, like the people, can walk and chew gum at the same time.  And this sort of partisan maneuver-and-block stuff happens all the time, Trump or no Trump.  The trumpublicans have used this approach to great effect for a long time.  The democrats are catching up, and that's not inherently bad, given the adversarial nature of our duopoly.

Trump's in the kitchen now.  Let him take the heat.
  

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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #15 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 11:35am:


That pic cracks me up.

Trump looks like he so wants to be over there high fiving his boys but he would be in the dog house if he did so.
  

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Wadsworth wrote on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.

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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #16 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:40pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:23pm:
If your point is that democrats are falling down on the job by not building and presenting their own cohesive vision for government, prosperity, and security, I completely agree.


This has consistently been my point since day one of the investigations.  In conversation after conversation with Greg I've expressed my concern and worries over how the Democrats and the media acting as surrogates for the Democrats have been handling this.

The investigation was predicated on a failed campaign strategy of Hillary Clinton's.  And it's been perpetuated by breathless Democrat media pundits convinced this is the way to correct the mistakes in analysis they made in 2016.  "We weren't wrong!  And we're going to prove it by proving Trump cheated!  It's the only way we could have all been so wrong!"

Quote:
If your point is that democrats needn't bother investigating Trump until they get their own house in order, I completely disagree.


No.  My point is the media goes over the crappity smacking moon with speculation and innuendo every few weeks whenever Robert Mueller takes a crap. 

It has led to an overabundance of assumption of the guilt of the Trump clown show.  It is a way to overturn the results of an election they really do not want to accept.

The Democrats SHOULDN'T bother to investigate Trump, and should let Mueller do his work.  Because they run a very real chance of blowing up any of what I already see as their very limited chances of taking the White House in 2020.

I'll throw out a few ifs of my own. 

IF Democrats go all in on Russia, Russia, Russia the way far too many of their outraged constituents insist they do ... and IF the Mueller investigation doesn't find anything concrete (far harder to do in these partisan times than it was for Starr in the 90s) ... the Democrats could try last minute to pull together a cohesive and coherent message for the American people and they will still fail because they failed on messaging.  They stomped on their own message by shouting Russia, Russia, Russia! every fifteen minutes.

That is the gamble far too many Democrats are taking.  And I think ... given how many "ifs" there are and how over the moon the reporting has been on it, it's a very, very bad gamble.

Quote:
The government, like the people, can walk and chew gum at the same time.  And this sort of partisan maneuver-and-block stuff happens all the time, Trump or no Trump.  The trumpublicans have used this approach to great effect for a long time.  The democrats are catching up, and that's not inherently bad, given the adversarial nature of our duopoly.

Trump's in the kitchen now.  Let him take the heat.


No.  "The government, like the people" can NOT walk and chew gum at the same time.

For evidence of that I present the existence of a President Donald J. Trump.

If you think the Benghazi investigation and stupid bullshit like that is how the Republicans won elections and the Democrats need to take a page from that playbook, you're wrong. 

The Republicans win so often against Democrats because the Democrats have been abandoning their own constituency and not giving them any reason to show up at the polls for them.  And now they're taking the opportunity to continue doing what they've been doing for 25 years.  Not giving their constituency any reason to show up at the polls for them.  And people who think like the Crack LNF Legal Dream Team have been helping them do it.

Queshank
  

BowHunter wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:24am:
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #17 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:41pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 11:11am:
Caught this summary of the Trump-Russia case on The Week, and thought I'd post an abbreviated summary here (with one or two tweaks of my own.)

The gist of it is that while we don't yet have an ironclad criminal case here, we do have a chain of events and evidence that defy reasonable attempts to explain them away.

Discuss!

1. A professor with close ties to the Russian govt offered opposition research to Papadopoulos.  Papadopoulos lied about this, was arrested, pled guilty, and went to jail.

2. A music producer offered Trump Jr. dirt on Clinton, and Jr. replied "I love it".  He and the rest of Trump's campaign team did the infamous Trump Tower meeting with the Russian lawyer.

3. Wikileaks started posting batches of emails from the DNC and Podesta, leaking them out at intervals, as if to maximize their impact on the presidential campaign.

4. Trump called for the Russians to publish Hillary's 33k emails.  That same day, Russian hackers attempted to do just that.

5. Assange has been trapped in an embassy in London, afraid of extradition to the US.  He was motivated to help Trump, in hopes of getting out of his extradition hazard and finally escape the embassy.

6. Trump declared (repeatedly) how much he loves wikileaks.

7. One of Obama's final actions was to sanction Russia over election meddling.  Flynn (Trump's future National Security Adviser) contacted the Russian ambassador to undermine the sanctions, was later fired by Trump, and then pled guilty to lying to the FBI about this.

8. Trump fired Comey after not securing his personal loyalty, and in an effort to stop the Russia investigation (which had started out as a counter-intelligence investigation).  Trump fumed endlessly about Sessions' recusal.  He attempted to fire Mueller directly, stopping only when his lawyer threatened to resign.  He has now installed a sycophant (Whitaker) as AG, with the intent of "limiting" the investigation.

9. Trump has consistently praised Putin and offered no criticism of him, while aggressively criticizing pretty much every other world leader he comes in contact with.  We also know that Trump was seeking to do business in Moscow before and during the election, while claiming repeatedly not to.

10. Trump and his campaign team have lied about every aspect of Trumps relationship with Russia.


This is a good rundown (except it doesn't note that Carter Page has been on the radar of the intel community for some time, which made it a concern when he became connected to the campaign; and there was the change in the GOP platform at the convention in Russia's favor re: Ukraine).

But I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the overall context in which all of this has been occurring.

These are the top 2 key judgements from the DNI's report on Russia's election meddling in 2016, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression of Moscow’s
longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order
, but these activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort compared to previous operations.

We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump.  We have high confidence in these judgments.


This is important because at the end of the day, at least for those of us that actually care about this country, our values, and our preeminent role in the world, this is not about Trump. This is about defending against, and making Russia pay for its actions to undermine us and the global rules and relationships that we've built over the past 70 years. And to the extent that Trump or anyone around him, wittingly or unwittingly, contributed to the significant escalation against us described in that bolded part above, then we should get to the bottom of it, and hold anyone responsible accountable. Since Russia's actions in 2016 were just a continuation of their efforts to undermine and weaken us, this is not just about the 2016 election. It's about figuring out the ways in which Russia had been successful in its most ambitious intelligence operation in modern Russian history and ensuring that they can't do it again.

Also, hello! I used to post under the name jus cogens here way back when every discussion was the Iraq war.
  
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #18 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:42pm
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Greg55_99 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 12:49pm:
Dems took over the House Q.  Number of seats is pretty big.  In the end, it's like being "A little bit pregnant".  Needless to say, Trump has been LYING to the American public about his Kremlin deals for over two years.  The Russians knew it.  So what did they get out of him for keeping quiet?  That's the question.

Greg


Greg. Spare me the he’s lying. You didn’t give a rats tail when Obama lies again and again.

Ever since your thread title about kav being a rapist you have zero cred.

Keep accusing. When there is proof, post it.
  
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Re: overview of "this Russia thing"
Reply #19 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:48pm
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petep wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:42pm:
Ever since your thread title about kav being a rapist you have zero cred.



You said that that was my thread title..  I know you don't pay attention to what others say but hell .. you don't even pay attention to what YOU say ..  Grin
  

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