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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke (Read 295 times)
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Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Dec 4th, 2018 at 8:16pm
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Noam Chomsky has been saying ever since Trump was elected that Russiagate is a bad joke.  As he says in the second video below: "Why are democrats concentrating on the one aspect of Trump's program which is fairly reasonable?" (that is, Trump's desire to improve relations with Russia).

This videos are not new, but I think still worthwhile.  Chomsky is a leftist, but not a Democrat, and has no problem ripping the democratic party.  Though I am from the opposite side of the aisle I can appreciate many of his points here, such as:

1.  The U.S. has consistently interfered in the elections of other nations for decades, including Russia's elections (as concerns Russia in particular Clinton blatantly threw his support behind Yeltsin in the 90's, at a time when Yeltsin was very unpopular) .  Even if the charges are correct, Chomsky says, they are nothing next to what U.S. does.

2.  If you want to talk about nations that have influence with the gov't and in U.S. elections, Israel is vastly more influential than Russia (this is actually from another video I didn't post here, but its on youtube).

3.  As mentioned earlier, one of the best aspects of Trump (it was one of the main reasons I voted for him) is his desire to improve relations with Russia.

4.  He points out a former U.S. Ambassador to Russia said that all the work the incoming Trump administration was doing to establish connections with Russia was just what they should be doing considering tensions on the Russia border.

5.  Democratic party managers are looking for someone or something to blame rather than admit they utterly mishandled the election.

I have been aware of Chomsky's opinion on this topic for a while, but it seems a good time to post as the democrats are now back on that horse with a vengeance.  Here's the thing though, Chomsky as I said, while a leftist, is not a democrat.  But the LNF leftists seem wed to the democratic party and they have become completely attached to this Russia-collusion narrative over the past two years.  They have completely bought into the media hype. 

Videos are short, total of about 9 minutes:








  


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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #1 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 10:34am
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Noam Chomsky carries a consider amount of weight in the educated, intellectual sector of the political Left.  It will be interesting if others in this group follow his lead and give voice to sharing Chomsky's view.
  

" The few will always act like the few.�

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #2 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 11:15am
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Yes I’ve seen these. And he is correct. I think what happens is msnbc says this is important. And the minions repeat it

It’s very emotional for them. The logic bears no power for them.

When one points out the obvious, as Chomsky is doing, they seem to short circuit. Or pivot as we often see some like fiddler do.
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #3 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 11:20am
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petep wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 11:15am:
Yes I’ve seen these. And he is correct. I think what happens is msnbc says this is important. And the minions repeat it

It’s very emotional for them. The logic bears no power for them.

When one points out the obvious, as Chomsky is doing, they seem to short circuit. Or pivot as we often see some like fiddler do.

As the Mueller Investigation seems to be coming to an uneventful end (in terms of Trump/Russian collusion), some of the Best & Brightest on th political Left may be abandoning a sinking ship in an attempt to salvage their own reputations.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #4 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 12:18pm
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Chomsky is a dude I generally respect, but he has tripped over a couple of fallacies, here.

Yes, the US has done election-meddling (and far beyond).  But that doesn't make election-meddling right, and it certainly doesn't make it right to conspire with other countries to meddle in ours.  This logic applies to whether or not we sanction Russia, not whether or not we sanction Trump.

Also, Trump is not working to improve US ties with Russia.  Trump is working to improve Trump business.  Obama sanctioned Russia because of that meddling, and Trump undermined it.  Trump has no objections to Russian military adventurism.  Trump floats ideas like scrapping NATO, leaving the baltic states undefended, and cracking open the EU -- all of which are great big wins for Putin, and none of which advance US interests.

He's improving our ties with Russia like Chamberlain was improving british ties with nazi Germany.

He is correct that Israel exerts considerably more effort and energy on US election meddling, but there is a sizable US population supporting Israeli interests, and Israel is in no way a competitor of the US on the global stage.  His criticism is correct, but minor.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #5 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:42pm
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Frank1 wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
Noam Chomsky has been saying ever since Trump was elected that Russiagate is a bad joke.


One of the maddening parts of being a leftist is that the communists still can't condemn anything Russia does, as if communism didn't fall apart more than 25 years ago.  Russia's a deeply regressive, authoritarian, borderline fascist nation that is working to spread right-wing nationalism.  Nothing about Russia's ruling class is remotely left, and their influence makes everything we want to do, as leftists, harder.

Quote:
1.  The U.S. has consistently interfered in the elections of other nations for decades, including Russia's elections


This is true.  So is interfering in elections good, bad, or neither?  His whataboutery can just as easily be used to justify America's interferences.

Quote:
2.  If you want to talk about nations that have influence with the gov't and in U.S. elections, Israel is vastly more influential than Russia (this is actually from another video I didn't post here, but its on youtube).


This collapses "influence" into one mass, as if lobbying and forming political alliances is the same thing as hacking political parties and disseminating their information is the same thing.  It's definitely not.  I don't have any love for Israel at all, but AIPAC is drastically different from stealing information from American political parties.

Quote:
3.  As mentioned earlier, one of the best aspects of Trump (it was one of the main reasons I voted for him) is his desire to improve relations with Russia.


Obama, Bush, and Bill Clinton all said the same thing, but they all ran into the same problem: Russia's a Great Power and has interests that conflict with America's ruling class interests.  Not surprisingly, Trump hasn't improved relations either, and it's unlikely he would have even if his mind functionally remotely well and he could string together a coherent paragraph.

Quote:
4.  He points out a former U.S. Ambassador to Russia said that all the work the incoming Trump administration was doing to establish connections with Russia was just what they should be doing considering tensions on the Russia border.


Again, there are official ways to do this that don't look like collusion or corrupt business dealings.

Quote:
5.  Democratic party managers are looking for someone or something to blame rather than admit they utterly mishandled the election.


There's truth in this, but it in no way undermines the seriousness of a rival government hacking our political parties and trying to influence our elections.  Republicans should take it seriously, too, since it could work against them, too.

For all his intelligence, Chomsky has a child's view of the world: everything that is against America is good, everything that is for America is bad.  Russia did something bad against America, but America is bad, so Russia's bad thing is actually good.  There's precious little nuance, and a whole lot of poor and illogical arguments, once you strip away the academic jargon.  The world's a lot more complicated than that, and as leftists, our allegiance ought to be to the workers of the world, not the ruling classes of Great Powers.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:59pm
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running deer - can you name any socialist regime that wasn't incredibly repressive - the ussr, cuba, german national socialist party, chavez in venezuela etc...heck, even jim jones mini jonestown socialist model..

when the gov't owns the means of production, and people are forced to subsidize others, the only way to rule things is to create a wall around the people, and run things with an iron fist...

my sense is many on the left are good people...they are very idealistic. They'd like us all to get along and share everything...

and someone always comes along promising this, and the people give it all up either by force or by will...and then when the gov't owns everything, the tables turn and they all say what happened....

its was textbook when chavez first nationalized the oil companies..he was loved...people were cheering him...until he used the military and kept nationalizing...then the people were crying...

then, the left does what you are doing - they say well that brutal dictator wasn't really left...uhhhh, he was right...

let me tell you one thing all dictatorships have in common...lets forget about left or right for a minute and say the real goal is individual rights and liberties and free choice...they all have to have a big centrally controlled gov't, that takes most of the resources (earnings, assets) from individuals in order to maintain power...always...they always always always preach we will take care of you...they always say these resources belong to the people, you, so we need to nationalize them...

There has never, ever, once, in the history of mankind...been a brutal regime that held control over people, by preaching and practicing a small decentralized gov't, more individual liberties and self reliance...they are always the same...large centralized gov'ts....

think about that...
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #7 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:50pm
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petep wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:59pm:
running deer - can you name any socialist regime that wasn't incredibly repressive


Regimes tend to be oppressive, and the Leninist model has utterly failed, as other leftists predicted even before it  was implemented.  It's worth noting that the strongest criticism of the Leninist, left dictatorship model was made by other leftists, such as Emma Goldman, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, and so on.

Fortunately, we can work from the insights of the anarchist, syndicalist, mutualist, and libertarian socialist models.  We can see how that they've worked in Spain, in the Paris Commune, and in modern worker-operated firms such as the cooperatives of Emilia-Romagna and the famous Spanish firm Mondragon.  I suspect that a truly liberated economy, if one is possible, will either be stateless or have a state that itself owns little and is heavily-dependent on a variety of worker-owned and -operated institutions.

It's also worth noting that the amount of repression in socialist (or capitalist) nations isn't constant.  There are more and less repressive period in all nations.  For instance, the Soviet Union was much more repressive under Stalin than under Gorbachev.  The United States was much more repressive under Thomas Jefferson than under Jimmy Carter.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of analogous atrocities committed between the capitalist and communist nations.  The Holodomor in the Ukraine is not terribly different from the genocide of the Indians or the endless brutalities committed by the British Empire.  However, since you identify with the winners of the Indian massacres but not the new Ukrainian communes, one is a repressive atrocity, and the other is waved away as being no big deal.

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my sense is many on the left are good people...


We're a mix of good and bad, just like anything else.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #8 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:10am
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Waking in a Wally Wonderland wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 10:34am:
Noam Chomsky carries a consider amount of weight in the educated, intellectual sector of the political Left.  It will be interesting if others in this group follow his lead and give voice to sharing Chomsky's view.


I'm going to coin a word here.  When you are using "intellectual" to describe these Marxists use the term "internallectual".  They are theorists that only think of themselves.  It's all about themselves, the selfish f*cks.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #9 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:19am
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Frenchconnection wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:10am:
They are theorists that only think of themselves.  It's all about themselves, the selfish f*cks.


"selfish f*cks" eh??  ... .

Frenchconnection wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 10:36am:
You're a lot nicer than I, I wouldn't have waited.  If they want me to begin later, then they can offer to help so I can begin my relax time earlier.

  

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